OT - Statins and You

[sptrout]

Re: Vitamin K discussion.
For what seems to be a fairly good overview, see the wiki.
It does suggest that K2 can be converted from K1 in the gut of healthy individuals and dietary K1 is relatively plentiful in dark green veggies.

Your post was the first time that I have seen mentioned that the body can convert K1 into K2, so I did some research last night. Apparently, this is true, but from what I could find that this conversion is a hit or miss situation and not very good even when there is a conversion. Below are links to four articles written by Dr. Mercola that cover many of the questions raised recently in this thread. For example; the differences between the forms of K2 (MK4 vs MK7), how K2 is not present in all (or even many) fermented vegetables, how K2 works inconjection with Vitamin D, and many other K1/K2 subjects.

I know that some do not like Dr. Mercola for a variety of reasons, but these articles were the best at summing up what I found at several other sites. One thing also mentioned is that there are no known side effects of taking K2, nor is there a recommended dosage. As mentioned, K2/MK7 has a 1/2 life of three days, where other versions of K2 and K1 are passed quickly through the GI system. Even though no side effects are noted, I seem to have trouble taking K2 any more than once every three days. For some reason, it seems to affect my sleep in the wrong direction. I have taken as little as 10mcg and have the same problem (even at that low dose, with a 3-day half life, it builds up). I always seem to be a test case for side effects of all drugs either OTC or Rx.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... efits.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... k1-k2.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... efits.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx

[Janknitz]

More bad news for statins: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 15.1011125

"In contrast to the current belief that cholesterol reduction with statins decreases atherosclerosis, we present a perspective that statins may be causative in coronary artery calcification and can function as mitochondrial toxins that impair muscle function in the heart and blood vessels through the depletion of coenzyme Q10 and ‘heme A’, and thereby ATP generation. Statins inhibit the synthesis of vitamin K2, the cofactor for matrix Gla-protein activation, which in turn protects arteries from calcification. Statins inhibit the biosynthesis of selenium containing proteins, one of which is glutathione peroxidase serving to suppress peroxidative stress. An impairment of selenoprotein biosynthesis may be a factor in congestive heart failure, reminiscent of the dilated cardiomyopathies seen with selenium deficiency. Thus, the epidemic of heart failure and atherosclerosis that plagues the modern world may paradoxically be aggravated by the pervasive use of statin drugs. We propose that current statin treatment guidelines be critically reevaluated."

Published in The Expert Review of Clinical Pharmacology.

[49er]

I came across a book today I'm thinking of buying (Kindle) because my library does not have it: Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox by Kate Rheaume-Bleue. It sounds a little like "this one thing will cure that ails, you, the world, and everything in it, but what I read on her blog is in line with all I have heard and read.

Then there's the controversy of what form of K2 to take. Some people say MK4 and some people say MK7, there doesn't seem to be any consensus. The Thorne D3/K2 is MK 4. (Supposedly Rheaume-Bleue recommends MK7). Since I also eat a fair amount of fermented foods (a dietary source of K2), I'm just hoping I have the bases covered until they sort it out.

For what it is worth, I started taking LifeExtension Bone Restore for various reasons. The K2 it has is MK7. An unexpected benefit I have received is the improve cognitive energy in spite of having sleep issues. The last few days, I have gotten tasks accomplished that have been left undone for months.

Unfortunately, it may be effecting my sleep so I will have to look more closely into whether there is a problem or not. But the sleep issues aside, I have been really happy with it.

49er

[Janknitz]

This is not about statins per se, but people are prescribed statins under the belief that they will lower cholesterol, and that lowering cholesterol will lower the risk of cardiovascular disease and death.

But here is a good explanation about how lowering cholesterol does NOT reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and death: https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2016/04/1 ... -of-death/

[49er]

This is not about statins per se, but people are prescribed statins under the belief that they will lower cholesterol, and that lowering cholesterol will lower the risk of cardiovascular disease and death.

But here is a good explanation about how lowering cholesterol does NOT reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and death: https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2016/04/1 ... -of-death/

That gets overlooked frequently by alot of folks in conventional medicine.

Anyway, more pro statin sentiment:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/03/health/st ... se-stroke/

[49er]

I wanted to let forum members know that when I had a recent physical, my total cholesterol was way above the acceptable limit. But all the other important ratios were excellent.

My PCP initially was going to recommend a statin but when he ran my risk factors and saw I had a 3.5% chance of getting cardiovascular disease, he left it up to me to decide what to do. It is my understanding that if they see a 7.5% figure, that is when the drug is recommended. Of course, you know the decision I made.

As an FYI, I have been on a high fat, low carb diet due to joining the pre diabetic club. And it is my understanding that total cholesterol can initially be elevated when someone starts this diet although admittedly, I think my result was quite unusual.

Doctor advised me to retest in 6 months to a year so it will be interesting to see what happens.

I think it is encouraging that I have a doctor who truly looked at the data vs. just automatically accepting that everyone with a total cholesterol of 200 needs to be on a statin.

Finally, I went back and reread all the posts in the thread. Great discussion and thank everyone who has contributed.

[Jay Aitchsee]

As an FYI, I have been on a high fat, low carb diet due to joining the pre diabetic club. And it is my understanding that total cholesterol can initially be elevated when someone starts this diet although admittedly, I think my result was quite unusual.

I think it is usual for total cholesterol to increase on a low carb diet because HDL often increases (along with a temporary rise in LDL, at first). Eating more fat and fewer refined carbs is the only thing that seems to work for me in raising my HDL. Remember, HDL is supposedly the "good" total cholesterol component and some statins lower both LDL and HDL. Many believe the lower the Total Cholesterol to HDL ratio the better (See the link below). It would be interesting to know your pre and post diet ratios.

Congrats on finding a doctor you can work with.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... Q-20058006

[49er]

As an FYI, I have been on a high fat, low carb diet due to joining the pre diabetic club. And it is my understanding that total cholesterol can initially be elevated when someone starts this diet although admittedly, I think my result was quite unusual.

I think it is usual for total cholesterol to increase on a low carb diet because HDL often increases (along with a temporary rise in LDL, at first). Eating more fat and fewer refined carbs is the only thing that seems to work for me in raising my HDL. Remember, HDL is supposedly the "good" total cholesterol component and some statins lower both LDL and HDL. Many believe the lower the Total Cholesterol to HDL ratio the better (See the link below). It would be interesting to know your pre and post diet ratios.

Congrats on finding a doctor you can work with.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-cond ... Q-20058006

Hi Jay,

I don't have pre diet ratios as it had been years since I had my cholesterol tested. But I recall that the total cholesterol wasn't as high as the current figure but was definitely over 200. And I still had the great HDL to LDL ratios even when my diet wasn't that great. But I was very active so who knows?

Current ratio is 2.59/1 which is excellent since according to the excellent link you provided, an optimal ratio is less than 3.5 to 1.

Yup, the previous PCP would have been pushing statins big time.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Current ratio is 2.59/1 which is excellent since according to the excellent link you provided, an optimal ratio is less than 3.5 to 1.

That's great!

[Violet West]

My doc was pushing statins for a long time and I resisted. Resisted until lately, that is, after my MI and AFib. I'm at such high risk for stroke and heart problems I finally gave in. Don't like it, but my doc's explanation made sense to me.

[HoseCrusher]

Don't forget to add Co Q10.

[Violet West]

Reluctant to add supplements without docs's approval, 'cause I'm taking so many meds now, though

[HoseCrusher]

Leading cardiologists such as Dr. Steven Sinatra and Dr. Mark Huston use statins in their practice and also strongly recommend the use of Co Q10. Do some research and discuss it with your doctor.

[Violet West]

thanks; I will

[Violet West]

wish I could edit. So, C Q 10 apparently helps with some things, but not others. Helps with heart failure -- good. Causes mile insomnia -- bad. Decreases effectiveness of blood thinners (which I'm on) -- very bad. Very hard to find good, non conflicting info