Foam Collar vs Chinstrap

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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NateS
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Foam Collar vs Chinstrap

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:43 pm

I'm giving up on chinstraps.

My first one was the ResMed Chin Restraint. Totally useless. Kept sliding foreword on my head, even with one of my girlfriend's berets trying to clip it in place.

Next was the Ruby, size Large. Worked great for many months and I swore by it and bragged about it. Then it stopped working - mouth breathing, leaks galore, dry mouth. I thought it stretched out, so I bought a brand new one, same size Large. Didn't work from Day One. So then I bought a Ruby, size Medium. Seemed to work, but I woke up every morning with a wide trough dug into the front of my scalp, from left to right, followed by headaches.

Next was the highly recommended Respironics Premium Chin Strap. Useless - either too loose and did nothing and kept sliding around or just tight enough and gave me another dent in my head and headaches and sometimes a very scary sharp head pain during the daytime.

Finally decided what I needed was the Papcap. It seemed to make sense - spreading the tension evenly all over my head, not trying to wrap a belt around a bowling ball etc. etc. First few nights it was just loose enough so that it kept sliding down over my eyes; tightened it up as little as possible and back to big daytime headaches from the nighttime pressure on my scalp and brain!

That's when I began to get worried about the resultant head pains and began to wonder - Is it really a good idea to sleep 8 hours a night with a tourniquet wrapped around your brain and all the blood vessels in your head?

Image

So I think I've sworn off anything that requires putting any tension or pressure on the top of my head.

Somewhere along the way I also tried chin-up strips and also fully taping my mouth. Result: a sense of panic and helplessness in my sleep, and lots of challenge every morning trying to carefully get the tape off my mustache and beard without painfully tearing the hairs out. Nighttime hostage in a bank robbery, torture victim in the morning.

My current effort is the soft neck collar discussed in another thread recently. So far it seems to be working reasonably well. Leak chart not perfect but acceptable. Still need some sugar-free lozenges for dry mouth but nowhere near as many as with the chinstraps when they were not cutting into my head all night.

Regards, Nate

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Last edited by NateS on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

cosmo
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by cosmo » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:18 pm

I've only gotten a few headaches since I started cpap treatment. I have the nasal pillow straps, Respironics Premium Chin Strap and Zeo headband as my daily setup. No problems for me.

I do have a dents around my ear/temple region where eye glasses go. I think that gives me more discomforts. I probably should try contact lense for a while to see if they work out.

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jdm2857
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by jdm2857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:24 pm

While there certainly are blood vessels in the scalp, those in your illustration are inside of the skull.

No chance of affecting those with a chinstrap.
jeff

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NateS
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:15 pm

jdm2857 wrote:While there certainly are blood vessels in the scalp, those in your illustration are inside of the skull.

No chance of affecting those with a chinstrap.
Yes, maybe I didn't pick the best illustration, but:
“The bones of the skull and tissues of the brain itself never hurt because they lack pain-sensitive nerve fibers.”3 “Most headaches happen outside your skull, in the nerves, blood vessels, and muscles that cover your head and neck.2 Several areas of the head can hurt, including a network of nerves which extends over the scalp and certain nerves in the face, mouth, and throat. Also sensitive to pain, because they contain delicate nerve fibers, are the muscles of the head and blood vessels found along the surface and at the base of the brain.”3 Sometimes the muscles or blood vessels swell (get larger), contract (tighten or get narrower), or go through other changes that stimulate or put pressure on the surrounding nerves.2


http://fcs.tamu.edu/health/healthhints/ ... /index.php

Regards, Nate

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Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
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Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

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SleepingUgly
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by SleepingUgly » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:32 pm

If you liked the Ruby, you could try the Adjustable one.

I think I'm messing up my lower teeth with the Hannibal Lechter style chinstrap.
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

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NateS
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:59 pm

Perhaps this one better illustrates my concern about chinstraps?

Image

Regards, Nate

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV; Dreamwear Nasal Mask Original; CPAPMax Pillow; ResScan & SleepyHead
Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

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SleepingUgly
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by SleepingUgly » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:41 pm

I think that illustrates your concern nicely. I think that's going to happen to you if you keep using a chinstrap. Seriously, I think my chinstrap is breaking my neck, crookening my teeth (that is a word I made up), marking up my face, and ruining my life.
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

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jdm2857
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by jdm2857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:24 pm

Gotcha.

A chinstrap could certainly be a tourniquet for the scalp and its associated muscles.
jeff

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NateS
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:49 pm

SleepingUgly wrote:
I think I'm messing up my lower teeth with the Hannibal Lechter style chinstrap.
I can only imagine what nightmares I would have wearing one of those!

Regards, Nate

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV; Dreamwear Nasal Mask Original; CPAPMax Pillow; ResScan & SleepyHead
Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

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PreemieNrsTiffy
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by PreemieNrsTiffy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:47 pm

I'm still new at the CPAP thing (for myself), but I have administered it to infants for years. Their circulation is very sensitive and even turning their heads too much can cause a devastating brain bleed but CPAP hats or chin straps are not implicated in any long term effects.

I have done well with the PapCap for now but it's just been a few weeks. I would love to have sewing skills so I could make one custom that would be a little better fit as I have to turn the edge up over my eyebrows or I wake up blind (with a cap over my eyes).

For those who are curious and not sensitive I will attach a link to a small preemie wearing cpap and a chin strap. Often, we can use something as low-tech has a piece of stretchy gauze as a chin strap.

http://www.myspace.com/princesshunny22/ ... 3A28441545}

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NateS
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:30 pm

I was still curious about the question as to whether or not the use of cpap chinstraps on infants is relevant to my concerns about the potential effects of tightness of chinstraps sufficient to keep the adult mouth closed.

Here's what I found regarding infant chinstraps at: http://www.neotechproducts.com/product- ... /chinstrap
The use of the Neotech ChinStrap is not to restrain the mouth from opening, it is to simply provide support to the patient to help maintain the pressure of CPAP. The ChinStrap should not be placed tightly, the infant should still be able to use a pacifier and if needed, cry, open their mouth, and if emesis occurs it will be expelled through the mouth.
I suggest that this supports my more tentative first impression, to-wit: that these are not comparable applications, since the purpose of an adult cpap chinstrap is in fact to keep the mouth closed in order to prevent the adult patient from breathing through the mouth.

Respectfully,

Nate

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Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV; Dreamwear Nasal Mask Original; CPAPMax Pillow; ResScan & SleepyHead
Last edited by NateS on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

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NateS
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by NateS » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:37 pm

SleepingUgly wrote:Seriously, I think my chinstrap is breaking my neck, crookening my teeth (that is a word I made up), marking up my face, and ruining my life.
Shall we have a chinstrap bonfire party?

Nate

_________________
Mask: DreamWear Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV; Dreamwear Nasal Mask Original; CPAPMax Pillow; ResScan & SleepyHead
Central sleep apnea AHI 62.6 pre-VPAP. Now 0 to 1.3
Present Rx: EPAP: 8; IPAPlo:11; IPAPHi: 23; PSMin: 3; PSMax: 15
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." —Groucho Marx

sleepstar
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by sleepstar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:40 pm

never really thought of chinstraps like that.
if you can still control your sleep apnea without one - great
but if your sleep apnea isn't controlled without it, then that isn't doing any good for your body either

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MagsterMile
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by MagsterMile » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:59 am

I generally use a FF mask since I breathe through mouth or nose - I do have a nasal pillow setup that Dr wanted me to try out but not really a long term solution. However I will use it use once in awhile for naps. - I tried an 'ace' bandage - about 2 " wide and wrapped it around chin over top of head and tied under my chin. It was fairly comfortable. This seems like it might not put a lot of pressure on top of your head since there is a bit of 'give' in the bandage. I have to admit the picture with all the veins and vessels in the head is quite an eye opener!

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Sheffey
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Re: Chinstrap - a Tourniquet for the Brain?

Post by Sheffey » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:26 am

PreemieNrsTiffy wrote: CPAP hats or chin straps are not implicated in any long term effects.
I doubt there have ever been any studies. Do some studies of adult CPAPers with chinstraps cinched tight and you might be surprised.
Sheffey