http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=18155047
Kevin
Article on NPR about sleep
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Organplayer
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Article on NPR about sleep
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GrizzlyBear
- Posts: 126
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Hiya,
There's a very lengthy article discussed on another thread which posits a different line - that we do not necessarily all need to sleep for a full night, and at least some of us may only need short sleep and daytime naps. In other words, the idea of needing sleep may be a matter of social conditioning. Further, the point seems to be made that the 'sleep industry' has an interest in promoting the idea that we SHOULD be sleeping X hours per night, and that we need their products to do so.
The whole thing is VERY confusing, and VERY annoying, but also VERY interesting. Thanks for the article.
The thread discussing this is as follows:
viewtopic/t27638/New-York-Times-article.html
Regards,
GrizzlyBear
There's a very lengthy article discussed on another thread which posits a different line - that we do not necessarily all need to sleep for a full night, and at least some of us may only need short sleep and daytime naps. In other words, the idea of needing sleep may be a matter of social conditioning. Further, the point seems to be made that the 'sleep industry' has an interest in promoting the idea that we SHOULD be sleeping X hours per night, and that we need their products to do so.
The whole thing is VERY confusing, and VERY annoying, but also VERY interesting. Thanks for the article.
The thread discussing this is as follows:
viewtopic/t27638/New-York-Times-article.html
Regards,
GrizzlyBear
Peace, by Thich Nhat Hanh
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
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Bert_Mathews
- Posts: 480
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Re: Article on NPR about sleep
The artical had a good link to this CHART http://www.snoozeorlose.com/index.php?id=40
I think this would be a big EYE OPENER for alot of people!
Bert
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socknitster
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GrizzlyBear,
I don't follow your argument about the sleep industry. Sleep researchers and the drug industry are two different and seperate entities. These sleep researchers are not saying--you need 8 hours of sleep and my pill to do it. They are saying that people are voluntarily depriving themselves of something they need.
Think about 100+ years ago before the lightbulb. Sure, you might stay up and chat a little while by fire/candlelight but reading wouldn't have been easy to do, no tv or other distractions. Maybe if you had an active sex life you might have been up late doing that, but especially in winter, you would be sleeping during most of the dark hours. Whether you think God designed us that way or we evolved that way, it is irrefutible that electricity changed sleep forever.
Yes, I agree that there have been some confusing studies that suggest that people COULD get a short sleep at night and then take a long nap or several short naps during the day--that just illustrates how versatile the human body is. For example in the tropics where it makes sense to have down time in the oppressive heat of the middle of the day, this idea makes total sense. But in our modern culture, unless you are retired or working from home, I don't see how you can make this work for you. I'm a stay at home mom and my son doesn't nap anymore, doesn't WANT or NEED a nap anymore, so no matter how much I would like one, it ain't going to happen.
Oh, how I would love more hours in the day! And I'm thrilled that since starting cpap I can feel rested after 8 hours, instead of maybe after 10 if I was lucky. And I do know that there are people who can function with a little bit less sleep than others, I do believe that. But most people who get by on less sleep? They are fooling themselves. They are sacrificing something--be it cognitive function or health. And they are pumping themselves with caffeine to keep going--which further impairs their sleep and further leads them to believe they need less. It is a vicious cycle that I wish they could see clearly.
Life would be simpler if the lights went off at dark, like they used to!
Jen
And P.S. : The scariest thing that I know about sleep is that it is starting to affect children. Parents don't think it is important and kids are being deprived by crazy work schedules or crazy activity schedules. One study I read directly linked ADDHD to sleep deprivation in early childhood.
My son (age 4) has always had issues with sleep and we struggled to get him the sleep he so clearly needed. When he was sleeping well, his temperment was angelic. When not, well, the words crabby monster baby come to mind. Kids need insane amounts of sleep. It is actually really hard to get my son to bed by 7 so that he gets enough sleep by wakeup the next morning since his Dad doesn't come home until 6:15 that deprives him of time with his father during the week. But we have come to the conclusion that it is better for him than to have a fractious, whiny, child who is too tired to play and throws tantrums all day!
I don't follow your argument about the sleep industry. Sleep researchers and the drug industry are two different and seperate entities. These sleep researchers are not saying--you need 8 hours of sleep and my pill to do it. They are saying that people are voluntarily depriving themselves of something they need.
Think about 100+ years ago before the lightbulb. Sure, you might stay up and chat a little while by fire/candlelight but reading wouldn't have been easy to do, no tv or other distractions. Maybe if you had an active sex life you might have been up late doing that, but especially in winter, you would be sleeping during most of the dark hours. Whether you think God designed us that way or we evolved that way, it is irrefutible that electricity changed sleep forever.
Yes, I agree that there have been some confusing studies that suggest that people COULD get a short sleep at night and then take a long nap or several short naps during the day--that just illustrates how versatile the human body is. For example in the tropics where it makes sense to have down time in the oppressive heat of the middle of the day, this idea makes total sense. But in our modern culture, unless you are retired or working from home, I don't see how you can make this work for you. I'm a stay at home mom and my son doesn't nap anymore, doesn't WANT or NEED a nap anymore, so no matter how much I would like one, it ain't going to happen.
Oh, how I would love more hours in the day! And I'm thrilled that since starting cpap I can feel rested after 8 hours, instead of maybe after 10 if I was lucky. And I do know that there are people who can function with a little bit less sleep than others, I do believe that. But most people who get by on less sleep? They are fooling themselves. They are sacrificing something--be it cognitive function or health. And they are pumping themselves with caffeine to keep going--which further impairs their sleep and further leads them to believe they need less. It is a vicious cycle that I wish they could see clearly.
Life would be simpler if the lights went off at dark, like they used to!
Jen
And P.S. : The scariest thing that I know about sleep is that it is starting to affect children. Parents don't think it is important and kids are being deprived by crazy work schedules or crazy activity schedules. One study I read directly linked ADDHD to sleep deprivation in early childhood.
My son (age 4) has always had issues with sleep and we struggled to get him the sleep he so clearly needed. When he was sleeping well, his temperment was angelic. When not, well, the words crabby monster baby come to mind. Kids need insane amounts of sleep. It is actually really hard to get my son to bed by 7 so that he gets enough sleep by wakeup the next morning since his Dad doesn't come home until 6:15 that deprives him of time with his father during the week. But we have come to the conclusion that it is better for him than to have a fractious, whiny, child who is too tired to play and throws tantrums all day!
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GrizzlyBear
- Posts: 126
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hiya.
The connection between the researchers and the sleep industry is that someone needs to fund the research - it is all too rarely independently funded.
So, the ones doing the funding are those with an interest in sleep issues who also have the money to fund the research - all too often the sleep 'industry' itself. So, they fund those projects which will most likely benefit themselves, rather than add to the general sum of human knowledge. They tend to be businesspeople before they are philanthropists.
Inventions like the light globe, or indeed the cpap machine itself, have generally come from independent researchers/inventors. It is the further development of these inventions that tends to be dominated by the 'industry'. For example, the persistent (and possibly untrue) rumours of extremely long life light bulbs being kept from the public by light bulb manufacturing companies which own the patents. While that extreme may not be true, it is interesting that significant advances in light bulbs have only recently been made through environmental pressures, rather than through research by light bulb manufacturers being made available to the public.
If we want to achieve real reform of the way the sleep industry is operating and the way it is structured, we need to exert that pressure available to us. On an individual basis, it is not much. However, as a group of consumers the available pressure is significantly greater.
My suggestion is that instead of constantly whingeing about the industry, we would be better both enhancing the delivery of information to consumers and potential consumers, and enhancing the capacity of us consumers to achieve effective reform.
Regards,
Ranting GrizzlyBear
The connection between the researchers and the sleep industry is that someone needs to fund the research - it is all too rarely independently funded.
So, the ones doing the funding are those with an interest in sleep issues who also have the money to fund the research - all too often the sleep 'industry' itself. So, they fund those projects which will most likely benefit themselves, rather than add to the general sum of human knowledge. They tend to be businesspeople before they are philanthropists.
Inventions like the light globe, or indeed the cpap machine itself, have generally come from independent researchers/inventors. It is the further development of these inventions that tends to be dominated by the 'industry'. For example, the persistent (and possibly untrue) rumours of extremely long life light bulbs being kept from the public by light bulb manufacturing companies which own the patents. While that extreme may not be true, it is interesting that significant advances in light bulbs have only recently been made through environmental pressures, rather than through research by light bulb manufacturers being made available to the public.
If we want to achieve real reform of the way the sleep industry is operating and the way it is structured, we need to exert that pressure available to us. On an individual basis, it is not much. However, as a group of consumers the available pressure is significantly greater.
My suggestion is that instead of constantly whingeing about the industry, we would be better both enhancing the delivery of information to consumers and potential consumers, and enhancing the capacity of us consumers to achieve effective reform.
Regards,
Ranting GrizzlyBear
Peace, by Thich Nhat Hanh
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
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GrizzlyBear
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
By the way,
I agree with you about sleep issues and young people.
I teach secondary students, mostly aged between 13 and 16. I have a lot of difficulties with kids falling asleep, or just being tired. Of course, this is in at least part a consequence of my teaching!!!!!!
BUT I am shocked at how many are up until the wee hours playing games, chatting on the computer, watching TV, even doing late assignments (not just late to submit, but late at night - I get kids who seem to want to make me feel guilty at the fact they stayed up until 3 in the morning doing some assignment they've had weeks to do).
Call me old fashioned, but I didn't start keeping these hours until I was an independent university student. There's NO WAY my parents would have allowed me to stay up until such hours. And how in heck are we supposed to teach a class full of kids who are sleep walking? This may have long term impacts on sleep habits which could be really bad later on.
I also relate to your concerns over sleep in kids. All too often it seems on my limited observations that parents will make kids keep hours that suit parents rather than the kids. You have made a good (and especially for the father) hurtful decision. My kids (10 and 7) are in bed by 8.30 - but how often I go to parties or barbecues, and there are peoples' kids still racing around at midnight. I really try not to be judgmental (a bad personal fault) - I know I'm lucky having kids who keep regular hours, and some people almost die trying to get their kids to go to bed, but at least some people are their own worst enemies.
I learned a strong lesson when my oldest was a baby. I used to rock him to sleep every night. It would take AGES. He would cry and cry, and I would rock and rock. It was about 6 months before I realised (Duuuuuh!!!!) that what was making him cry was my rocking. When I stopped he went to sleep easily. Since then I've tried really hard not to over assert my own need (in this case, to feel needed by rocking him to sleep) over my kids' needs.
Regards,
Dadda GrizzlyBear
I agree with you about sleep issues and young people.
I teach secondary students, mostly aged between 13 and 16. I have a lot of difficulties with kids falling asleep, or just being tired. Of course, this is in at least part a consequence of my teaching!!!!!!
BUT I am shocked at how many are up until the wee hours playing games, chatting on the computer, watching TV, even doing late assignments (not just late to submit, but late at night - I get kids who seem to want to make me feel guilty at the fact they stayed up until 3 in the morning doing some assignment they've had weeks to do).
Call me old fashioned, but I didn't start keeping these hours until I was an independent university student. There's NO WAY my parents would have allowed me to stay up until such hours. And how in heck are we supposed to teach a class full of kids who are sleep walking? This may have long term impacts on sleep habits which could be really bad later on.
I also relate to your concerns over sleep in kids. All too often it seems on my limited observations that parents will make kids keep hours that suit parents rather than the kids. You have made a good (and especially for the father) hurtful decision. My kids (10 and 7) are in bed by 8.30 - but how often I go to parties or barbecues, and there are peoples' kids still racing around at midnight. I really try not to be judgmental (a bad personal fault) - I know I'm lucky having kids who keep regular hours, and some people almost die trying to get their kids to go to bed, but at least some people are their own worst enemies.
I learned a strong lesson when my oldest was a baby. I used to rock him to sleep every night. It would take AGES. He would cry and cry, and I would rock and rock. It was about 6 months before I realised (Duuuuuh!!!!) that what was making him cry was my rocking. When I stopped he went to sleep easily. Since then I've tried really hard not to over assert my own need (in this case, to feel needed by rocking him to sleep) over my kids' needs.
Regards,
Dadda GrizzlyBear
Peace, by Thich Nhat Hanh
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
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sleepycarol
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I agree with Grizzly about secondary students and their sleep habits. I often have students that want to sleep and when you ask them what they did the night before you get the gamut of playing computer games, video games, partying, etc. (I, also, teach middle and high school).
I have always needed a lot of sleep. I have wondered if part of the reason was that we had a very strict mother who was very, very rigid. We were put to bed early and expected to go to sleep. If we didn't go to sleep the alternative was a spanking. As an 18 year old, I had a 9:00 pm curfew and was expected to be in the house and ready for bed very shortly thereafter. You DIDN'T dare argue with my mother or you suffered the consequences and so we went to bed early and didn't get up until she told us we could. We were not allowed to sleep late in the morning and was up around 7:00 each morning whether we wanted to or not.
This pattern is still pretty ingrained in me with going to bed early. Week-ends I tend to sleep later.
I have always needed a lot of sleep. I have wondered if part of the reason was that we had a very strict mother who was very, very rigid. We were put to bed early and expected to go to sleep. If we didn't go to sleep the alternative was a spanking. As an 18 year old, I had a 9:00 pm curfew and was expected to be in the house and ready for bed very shortly thereafter. You DIDN'T dare argue with my mother or you suffered the consequences and so we went to bed early and didn't get up until she told us we could. We were not allowed to sleep late in the morning and was up around 7:00 each morning whether we wanted to or not.
This pattern is still pretty ingrained in me with going to bed early. Week-ends I tend to sleep later.
Start Date: 8/30/2007 Pressure 9 - 15
I am not a doctor or other health care professional. Comments reflect my own personal experiences and opinions.
I am not a doctor or other health care professional. Comments reflect my own personal experiences and opinions.
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socknitster
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Sometimes I just cannot BELIEVE what I see and hear regarding kids sleep. What makes me the most angry is when my neighbors have large outdoor parties that last well into the night and their kids run around outside screeching and screaming and keeping MY KID UP! Oh, that burns my butt! Or the neighbor kids who decide they are going to play basketball at 6 am on saturday and their ball "accidently" hits our house. We have got to move out of the city into the country and SOON! I thought apartment living was annoying--living in tract housing has turned out to be worse.
I remember being sleepy in high school and college DESPITE the fact that I kept similar regular sleeping hours that my Mom enforced. Unfortunately for me, it wasn't the quantity of sleep that was the stumbling block, but the quality. I was likely suffering from apnea even then.
We only have 1 tv and 1 computer and that is the way it will stay in our house. My kids will not be up all night playing in their rooms with the door closed. TV and computer out in public rooms where I can keep an eye on what they are doing! My son, at 4, would already be a computer junky if I didn't limit his screen time!
Jen
I remember being sleepy in high school and college DESPITE the fact that I kept similar regular sleeping hours that my Mom enforced. Unfortunately for me, it wasn't the quantity of sleep that was the stumbling block, but the quality. I was likely suffering from apnea even then.
We only have 1 tv and 1 computer and that is the way it will stay in our house. My kids will not be up all night playing in their rooms with the door closed. TV and computer out in public rooms where I can keep an eye on what they are doing! My son, at 4, would already be a computer junky if I didn't limit his screen time!
Jen
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TossinNTurnin
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That could be. But then it could be argued that it's advantageous to corporate america to promote a "worker bee" mentality. I'd like to think that they'd recognize that down the line that will hurt productivity, but I tend to think they are short term thinkers. Squeeze what you can out of an individual, get them to do the job of 3 people, wear them out and move onto the next.GrizzlyBear wrote:Hiya,
Further, the point seems to be made that the 'sleep industry' has an interest in promoting the idea that we SHOULD be sleeping X hours per night, and that we need their products to do so.
The whole thing is VERY confusing, and VERY annoying, but also VERY interesting. Thanks for the article.
The thread discussing this is as follows:
viewtopic/t27638/New-York-Times-article.html
Regards,
GrizzlyBear
I dunno. While there undoubtedly is a lot of con games going on in the sleep industry... over all, I think there really is a substantial problem in general of lack of adequate sleep time in this country, aside from quality of sleep.
"She is a singer, and therefore capable of anything" Vincenzo Bellini
Zoo Med Repti Heat cable to prevent rainout and the Aussie heated hose
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GrizzlyBear
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- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Your point is a good one. I am cautious of conspiracy theories, but there doesn't need to be a conspiracy theory to effect attitudes to work. I was brought up with what we called the 'protestant work ethic', and it has blighted my life. There seems to be an attitude which becomes objectionable.I dunno. While there undoubtedly is a lot of con games going on in the sleep industry... over all, I think there really is a substantial problem in general of lack of adequate sleep time in this country, aside from quality of sleep.
In my country, computers were spruiked as bringing time savings to the people. We would greatly increase leisure time, and we would all benefit from the extra spare time we would have. What a joke!!!
Almost simultaneously, we had people here criticising Australia as the land of the long weekend, politicians scrapped as many of our public holidays as they could, and we were told to 'increase productivity' or Australia would become a 3rd world country. How many of us were sucked in by this cruelty!!!!
Now, in areas like mine (teaching) we are being told to 'increase productivity', or we won't get pay rises. This means less 'down time' and extra nights in professional development and meetings (as though I don't already spend weekends and nights on marking and lesson development and research and communication with parents!!!!). The fact that we're underpaid for the pressure and responsibility of our work already goes unremarked in the cry for greater 'productivity'. Work harder, work longer.
And the consequences? Lost sleep, worse sleep, lower effective productivity during the day and so on. And having worked in several other job areas I know that it is not only happening in the teaching field.
Regards,
Soon-to-be-back-at-work GrizzlyBear
Peace, by Thich Nhat Hanh
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
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GrizzlyBear
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
I know what you mean. We've had a case here recently where a 16 year old conned his parents into letting him stay at home while they went on holidays and then organised a party at which 500 kids turned up. They had to call in the police to try and clear things up after the neighbours complained. The kid's responses? "We told them there was going to be a party, then they complained. What's going on?" and "It's not my fault, it all happened off my block of land."Sometimes I just cannot BELIEVE what I see and hear regarding kids sleep. What makes me the most angry is when my neighbors have large outdoor parties that last well into the night and their kids run around outside screeching and screaming and keeping MY KID UP!
I love it. I have a lot of time for teenagers, they are much maligned and much misunderstood. As a teacher it is tempting to always blame the parents, but sometimes even parents can't do anything with their kids. The case of the kid above - when his parents came home he took off, and is being hero worshipped all over town!!!!
Still, I have numerous kids, from age 13 through to 16 who spend every weekend night drunk, and come to school alcohol and drug affected. And I have kids, as I've said earlier, up all night doing other things. One really has to wonder where the parents are and what they're doing allowing this to happen. Mind you, my oldest kid is 10, and I'm already having trouble convincing him to do what I think he should (or shouldn't) - so I hesitate to be too critical if I haven't had the experience yet. I might be much more sympathetic with parents in a few years time.
Regards,
Crotchety old GrizzlyBear
Peace, by Thich Nhat Hanh
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
...I am alive, can still breathe the fragrance of roses and dung,
eat, pray, and sleep....
Mine are raised and raised to be responsible... by example, not just words. I agree with all being said here about kids today (most of them according to the news). I feel sorry for my daughter with two 7 & 10 years. So far all is fine.Still, I have numerous kids, from age 13 through to 16 who spend every weekend night drunk, and come to school alcohol and drug affected. And I have kids, as I've said earlier, up all night doing other things.
There are not many good role models out there either... but that is a whole other thread. Violence... is everywhere. They are immune to what follows a violent act.
Aaaggg do not get me started.
Barb
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