New York Times article

This is a long article but I found it very interesting.

It covers a number of sleep related subjects, but largely focusses on our Western definition of "a good night's sleep" and the commercialisation of that concept.

It discusses among other things the mattress industry and sleep medication.

here 'tis

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/magaz ... eep-t.html

I found it in this collection of articles about sleep from the NY Times

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/heal ... leep_apnea

Moby,

Gosh, doesn't this article hit the nail on the head. The sleep 'industry' (who would ever have thought of sleep being an 'industry'???!!!) is there not to provide a service to us (primarily), but to make a profit out of our needs. In general terms, if we live in the society we currently have, we have to accept that people who provide services can make a profit. However, there's profit and 'profit'.

I used to have a friend who, in my days of smoking illicit products at university in the seventies, used to refer to mild products and mild products (the latter, of course, blowing one's socks off). I feel the same way about profits - there are acceptable and understandable profits (and ways of making them) and then there are profits. I can't but feel that the so-called sleep 'industry' is in the latter grouping.

This really rots my socks. I read so many of the posts on this site, where people suffer ignorant medicos and equipment suppliers and insurance companies, many of whom seem to be in the business solely to rort the system, and profit from our misfortune.

Regards,

Ranting GrizzlyBear (By the way, I hope all you Perthites are being friendly to the Indian cricket team)

I read a lot of business magazines, Inc., Entrepreneur, Fast Times, etc...

EVERYTHING is marketed these days. If you are seeing something in your world, there is someone selling, promoting, and profiting from it somehow -- period.

That runs the gamut from keywords in Internet forums, banner adds, click throughs, to cars, homes, and beds.

In a way, it is capitalism in action -- a good thing. Most of us don't prefer a communistic society, and choices we make in how we spend our money are part and parcel of capitalism, but with that being said, sometimes it gets our of hand, and the profits are more important than health, etc.

On the other hand... I'm writing this from a Radison motel room in Chicago where "sleep number" beds are featured in every room. Definitely a good night sleep! Probably be our next mattress at home. All the good stuff I used to like about my water bed (yes, I'm old) but none of the drawbacks.

The article questions the modern Western model of "a full night's sleep" being the norm for humans.

Historically and culturally this is not the case (according to the article).

Yet "a full night's sleep" is being marketed aggressively by pharmaceutical and mattress companies, and we are being steered to want "a full night's sleep".

Maybe some of us would do better with shorter, more frequent sleeps?

I would like to know whether shorter sleeps would provide us with enough of the different sort of sleep (REM SWS etcc) that we have been proved to need.

Di

Hiya, Moby.

Sorry, I hopped up on my soap box a bit quickly there, as usual!!!

One of the issues here is that as there is now so much money pouring into the 'sleep industry' from people trying to achieve what they've been told they should be achieving (a 'full' night's sleep), who will research (or more to the point, fund research) into issues such as those raised by you and in the article.

One wonders if some of us (at least) who are currently told we are 'sick' because we can't get a 'good' night's sleep (particularly, perhaps, those with marginal sleep apnea) are simply wired a little differently, and could perhaps be better served by daytime naps. The problem with that, of course, is that in our society we are expected to put in a 'full' day's work, as well as get a 'full' night's sleep - and not many employers are going to allow us to seek an alternative that may better serve us. Mind you, many of my students seem determined to prove the daytime sleep theory!!!!!!!

Of course, this is perhaps even more a point for those on medications (with side effects) and who fork out massive sums for fancy beds and mattresses, or who feel guilt/concern/fear etc. because they have 'trouble' sleeping.

It is possible (probable?) that those of us with more serious apnea problems do have a major medical problem - but who is to say that with more research we may find that blanket approaches to the condition are not best suited to at least some individuals. We need that research.

I notice this in regard to diabetes, as well. It is only in comparatively recent times that Diabetes 2 has been recognised as a different disease altogether to Diabetes 1 - and there is considerable ignorance still. I really resent being told Diabetes 2 is a 'lifestyle' disease, as though all the fault for getting it is mine. In very recent times it has become more clear that there are significant genetic influences with regard to Diabetes 2 (influences that some of us, especially with my own family history where the health history of family members is not always clear, are not aware of - oops, there's that preposition!!!!).

But again, who will fund that research if the companies with the big bucks are more interested in profiting from us, than in proving (or even seeing) whether or not we need their products.

Whooee - time I got back to school - then i can rant at the kids!!!!

Rantabilly GrizzlyBear

ah yes, Abe Lincoln and the talking beaver tv ad . informative times article

GrizzlyBear wrote: In general terms, if we live in the society we currently have, we have to accept that people who provide services can make a profit.

You are right Grizz.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages." - Adam Smith

Capitalism is far from perfect but better that any other system on this earth.

Sorta funny to me. This discussion exactly mirrors a discussion on another forum I'm on regarding Living History, and the "industry" that caters to us reenactors, and exploits us by selling us crap that they claim is "authentic". The word "authentic" is used by the Reenacting industry in much the same way the medical industry uses "good nights sleep".

It's sad, and it's irritating, and god bless the Internet for helping us communicate and learn from one another!!!!

I too feel victimized by the commercials that tell me everyone deserves 8 hours of refreshing sleep. I rarely get that, and it's NOT MY FAULT. My body just wakes up at 5 or 6 hours some days, and won't cooperate. Should I feel guilty and buy drugs and pills and a new bed? Or should I roll my eyes and breathe and remember the guilt I used to feel when watching Beer commercials in the 1980's and thinking my life was NEVER THAT FUN?

Cheers,
Babs

Anonymous wrote:Sorta funny to me. This discussion exactly mirrors a discussion on another forum I'm on regarding Living History, and the "industry" that caters to us reenactors, and exploits us by selling us crap that they claim is "authentic". The word "authentic" is used by the Reenacting industry in much the same way the medical industry uses "good nights sleep".

It's sad, and it's irritating, and god bless the Internet for helping us communicate and learn from one another!!!!

........

Buy your reenactor's stuff from companies that treat you honestly. I assume you are telling all your fellow reenactors which companies are lying b%$#@!s and which are decent.

Sorry for stating the obvious but it irritates me too.

YES ROOSTER, WE MOST CERTAINLY DO! In fact, less politely than I've seen on THIS forum. Well, with some exceptions.

LOL,
Babs

Hiya, Folks.

Here's a copy of a message I put on another thread. Perhaps it applies to more than just us. Perhaps the 'ripped off' need to get a bit more active to spread the word on those things we're being ripped off about.

I know I have a great GP (family doctor), and he would happily have passed on any information brochures that were available on sleep apnea and its treatment, but there just doesn't seem to be any independent body (at least in my country) which is making them available. At least a brochure directing us to an informative website would be a good start!!!!!

Anyway, here's my quote:

Hiya, Folks.

I'm new to this cpap stuff, but it
seems from my distance (Australia) that there are a lot of people in the US with our condition, many of whom are being serially and seriously ripped off by elements of the sleep 'industry'.

Like pilot_ron, I have benefited enormously from my short access to this forum and all you wonderful people. Unlike many of you, I didn't do enough research before I was ripped off by an Australian version of your DMEs. A spot of caveat emptor, I guess, but I am much better prepared for the future.

I was wondering, however, that there is so much brilliant advice on this forum, is it possible to try and get it out 'there', for access before people succumb to the sleep industry's blandishments? Is there an association of sleep apnea sufferers that could supply information brochures to family doctors (GPs, in my country), perhaps set up a website with information pages, and so on.

I would like to discuss this a little further, but I'm under instructions to take my kids for a yum cha, and then shopping - better go, or I'll get my bum kicked.

Regards,

Thoughtful GrizzlyBear

Isn't there someone out there savvy to the ways of the internet who could at least put together an informative website based on the fantastic information available on this site?

Regards,

GrizzlyBear

Grizzly, your post inspired me to start a thread listing Aussie resources.

At least one of them promotes a "Good Night's Sleep"

However, they may just be joining the zeitgeist (sp?) so I didn't exclude them for overcapitalising on us unfortunates!

A list might be a start to us Aussies sifting through the services on offer over here.


What are you reading at the moment? My latest great read was "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, came back to me recently walkilng through our local burnt out bushland

Also just discovered Jasper Fforde ( a Christmas present, wouldn't have gone for him myself because of the pretentious surname!) Very funny and quite gripping.


regards

Di

Hi, Moby.

I'm afraid my taste in literature is not very highbrow - perhaps because I have to teach it!!!! I write historical crime fiction as a hobby (I hate people reading my work!!! This really amuses my students, when they aren't accusing me of hypocrisy!!!!), so I also spend a lot of time reading crime fiction of various sorts.

However, I also like some non-fiction, especially slightly edgy histories, generally written by non-historians. I've just read a couple of books I was given for Xmas. They are both by Terry Jones (of the Monty Pythons) - one on medieval life (which I teach), and the other on a 'barbarian' view of the Romans (of interest to me, because I am of part Celtic origin). Both absolutely fascinating reads - very readable works, with some great questioning of the dominant ways of thought among historians. They have given me real food for thought.

I like the sound of Jasper Fforde - I'll seek him out.

Regards,

GrizzlyBear