I have been on CPAP since mid-July. I am feeling a little better, but I am still very tired/fatigued and feel like I'm in a "brain fog." It's gotten worse since the weather has become cold, gray and nasty.
I'm thinking of going to a naturopathic doctor to see if they can help me with this, and with overall health in general.
Have any of you had experiences with NDs? Was it helpful, pointless or somewhere in between? What should I expect?
Another thing: Should I be expecting to have any "follow ups" with my sleep doctor? I feel like I've basically been left on my own to figure things out.
Finally, I keep getting "Explanation of Benefits" forms from my insurance company telling me how much they paid for my mask cushions, hoses, filters, etc; and how much I owe. But I have never gotten an actual bill from the DME (Nationwide).
What's up with that?
Anyway, thanks in advance for any help!
Naturopathic Medicine (and a few other questions)
Naturopathic Medicine (and a few other questions)
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Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge.
-Kahlil Gibran
-Kahlil Gibran
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sharon1965
- Posts: 1232
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:59 pm
- Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
hi amandalee,
it's hard to know for sure how long it should take to see results, everyone is different, of course; i assume you have data collection capabilities, and can tell from your reports if your treatment is optimal?
...in my case i have 3 separate sleep disorders, one of which is obviously OSA, one is PLMD, for which i'm medicated and the other is fibromyalgia, for which i'm engaged in the eternal search for relief...for me, all three of them cause the symptoms you describe; i've been on cpap for almost a year and i do feel somewhat better, though i still suffer from fatigue etc, ...forgive me if you've mentioned this before, i just can't recall, but have you ever been checked out for other underlying issues besides OSA?
as for the naturopath: i've given this the old college try, too, but it just ended up being too cost prohibitive for me, since none of it was covered; then i got my osa dx and was hoping cpap would be the answer i'd been seeking, so i haven't really been back in a year...i suppose if you can afford the out of pocket expense, it can't hurt, though ruling other issues (ie thyroid, iron/ferritin levels, plmd etc.) out would still be my best advice
and in my experience, you should be having follow ups with your sleep doc, though these things are sometimes different here in canada
it's hard to know for sure how long it should take to see results, everyone is different, of course; i assume you have data collection capabilities, and can tell from your reports if your treatment is optimal?
...in my case i have 3 separate sleep disorders, one of which is obviously OSA, one is PLMD, for which i'm medicated and the other is fibromyalgia, for which i'm engaged in the eternal search for relief...for me, all three of them cause the symptoms you describe; i've been on cpap for almost a year and i do feel somewhat better, though i still suffer from fatigue etc, ...forgive me if you've mentioned this before, i just can't recall, but have you ever been checked out for other underlying issues besides OSA?
as for the naturopath: i've given this the old college try, too, but it just ended up being too cost prohibitive for me, since none of it was covered; then i got my osa dx and was hoping cpap would be the answer i'd been seeking, so i haven't really been back in a year...i suppose if you can afford the out of pocket expense, it can't hurt, though ruling other issues (ie thyroid, iron/ferritin levels, plmd etc.) out would still be my best advice
and in my experience, you should be having follow ups with your sleep doc, though these things are sometimes different here in canada
If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got...
I can't tell you if a naturopathic "doctor" is right for you. However, if you are on CPAP Talk then you are at least a little interested in evidence-based medicine since things like polysomnographic sleep studies and CPAP machines are a soundly part of evidence -based medicine with actual double blind studies to show they actually work and don't just seem like they work.
Naturopathy is not one thing. The naturopathic "doctors" don't agree on what they believe, which is common among doctors who don't use scientific evidence as their basis for what they believe and are, thus, free to believe what ever they feel like. One of the fundamental tenets of Naturpathy is a rejection of the idea that germs cause disease. True naturopaths believe that germs are symptoms not causes. This puts them in conflict with the most fundamental advance in medicine we have, the "germ theory" of disease. Of course, not all naturopaths agree on that point.
However, going to a natureopath may make you feel better with their personalized attention and caring bedside manner. However, they are unlikely to actually be able to treat any underlying non-psychogenic disease, only your perception of the symptoms.
For more information check out healthcare advocate and Medical Doctor, Stephen Barrett's website http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... pathy.html
Naturopathy is not one thing. The naturopathic "doctors" don't agree on what they believe, which is common among doctors who don't use scientific evidence as their basis for what they believe and are, thus, free to believe what ever they feel like. One of the fundamental tenets of Naturpathy is a rejection of the idea that germs cause disease. True naturopaths believe that germs are symptoms not causes. This puts them in conflict with the most fundamental advance in medicine we have, the "germ theory" of disease. Of course, not all naturopaths agree on that point.
However, going to a natureopath may make you feel better with their personalized attention and caring bedside manner. However, they are unlikely to actually be able to treat any underlying non-psychogenic disease, only your perception of the symptoms.
For more information check out healthcare advocate and Medical Doctor, Stephen Barrett's website http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... pathy.html
Thanks Sharon!
I do check my data. My AHI has been under 1.0 for a few months now (usually about 0.4, as far as I can remember). I don't know the other numbers off the top of my head, but as far as I can tell, they seem ok (no major leaks, etc).
I've had my iron/ferritin levels checked (they are kind of low, so I take an iron supplement), as well as my thyroid, B12 and a bunch of other stuff (which all came back normal).
There is an employee health clinic at my work that I usually go to. Whenever I come in and say that I am feeling fatigued, run down, and just not very healthy in general, it's like they don't even listen. They just blame it on sleep apnea.
I realize that it can take time before I start to feel better, and maybe I am just being impatient. On the other hand though, it's like I have this "gut" feeling that there's more to it. But after my experiences with conventional medicine, it seems unlikely that any doctor will really listen to me.
But maybe a naturopath would?
I found a few that are on my insurance, so at least an office visit would be partially covered (though I'm not sure about the treatments). I'm just so sick of feeling this way that I'd be willing to try almost anything at this point.
Anyway, it does seem to me like I should be coming in for some kind of follow ups with my sleep doc. It's like they just gave me the machine and then cut me loose.
I do check my data. My AHI has been under 1.0 for a few months now (usually about 0.4, as far as I can remember). I don't know the other numbers off the top of my head, but as far as I can tell, they seem ok (no major leaks, etc).
I've had my iron/ferritin levels checked (they are kind of low, so I take an iron supplement), as well as my thyroid, B12 and a bunch of other stuff (which all came back normal).
There is an employee health clinic at my work that I usually go to. Whenever I come in and say that I am feeling fatigued, run down, and just not very healthy in general, it's like they don't even listen. They just blame it on sleep apnea.
I realize that it can take time before I start to feel better, and maybe I am just being impatient. On the other hand though, it's like I have this "gut" feeling that there's more to it. But after my experiences with conventional medicine, it seems unlikely that any doctor will really listen to me.
But maybe a naturopath would?
I found a few that are on my insurance, so at least an office visit would be partially covered (though I'm not sure about the treatments). I'm just so sick of feeling this way that I'd be willing to try almost anything at this point.
Anyway, it does seem to me like I should be coming in for some kind of follow ups with my sleep doc. It's like they just gave me the machine and then cut me loose.
_________________
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Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge.
-Kahlil Gibran
-Kahlil Gibran
No question about it. A naturopath will listen to your concerns and validate them. That is one of the things that alternative practitioners often do better than evidence-based practitioners. The question that remains is whether they have any genuinely accurate ways to diagnose the underlying cause of these symptoms and treat them with a valid and efficacious treatment. I think the answer is probably "no" to those last two things. But, just going and being listened to may help you feel better regardless of whether their treatment actually works.amandalee wrote:...But after my experiences with conventional medicine, it seems unlikely that any doctor will really listen to me.
But maybe a naturopath would?...
Anyway, it does seem to me like I should be coming in for some kind of follow ups with my sleep doc. It's like they just gave me the machine and then cut me loose.
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sharon1965
- Posts: 1232
- Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:59 pm
- Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
amandalee
i just noticed that you are on apap...i have no personal experience there, but i have read posts from others who say they prefer to run their apap on straight cpap once they have found their 'ideal' pressure; apparently some people experience arousals from the pressure changes; could it be that you are waking without knowing it? of course, you may already know this, or you might even use your apap in cpap mode, it just ocurred to me when i saw the machine you use
again, no personal experience, just a thought around the continued tiredness
i just noticed that you are on apap...i have no personal experience there, but i have read posts from others who say they prefer to run their apap on straight cpap once they have found their 'ideal' pressure; apparently some people experience arousals from the pressure changes; could it be that you are waking without knowing it? of course, you may already know this, or you might even use your apap in cpap mode, it just ocurred to me when i saw the machine you use
again, no personal experience, just a thought around the continued tiredness
If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got...
Sharon- maybe the pressure changes are waking me up. I feel like I got no sleep last night. I was actually aware of waking up several times. Maybe I will give straight CPAP a try for awhile.
ApNoob- Yeah, I worry about a naturopath not being evidence based; it's hard to know if they are actually helpful or not.
The one I am thinking of going to has a website:
http://www.utahnaturalmedicine.com/Serv ... erviceID=5
It says they do blood tests and other labs. Maybe they would be more detailed than a conventional practicioner? I don't know. I'm just getting desperate because I hate feeling so crappy all the time.
ApNoob- Yeah, I worry about a naturopath not being evidence based; it's hard to know if they are actually helpful or not.
The one I am thinking of going to has a website:
http://www.utahnaturalmedicine.com/Serv ... erviceID=5
It says they do blood tests and other labs. Maybe they would be more detailed than a conventional practicioner? I don't know. I'm just getting desperate because I hate feeling so crappy all the time.
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Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge.
-Kahlil Gibran
-Kahlil Gibran
Frankly, I'd be more worried by the fact they offer blood tests rather than reassured. Alternative practitioners often use scientific sounding tests in a way that isn't backed up by evidence. The fact that naturopathy is not evidence based means that any "test" they do will be used as a justification for whatever treatment they feel like--without any scientific basis for such treatment. This means that the tests are only expensive window dressing to make you feel the treatment is based on "lab tests."amandalee wrote:Sharon- maybe the pressure changes are waking me up. I feel like I got no sleep last night. I was actually aware of waking up several times. Maybe I will give straight CPAP a try for awhile.
ApNoob- Yeah, I worry about a naturopath not being evidence based; it's hard to know if they are actually helpful or not.
The one I am thinking of going to has a website:
http://www.utahnaturalmedicine.com/Serv ... erviceID=5
It says they do blood tests and other labs. Maybe they would be more detailed than a conventional practicioner? I don't know. I'm just getting desperate because I hate feeling so crappy all the time.
The "doctors" listed on the site all are very educated, I'm skeptical of doctoral and masters degrees in pseudo science, however, and especially skeptical of people who offer "detoxification"--a standard pseudo treatment among alternative practitioners. However, I suspect that the staff is utterly charming and intelligent and you will most likely find them much more responsive than your sleep dx. However, because of that it will be very hard for you to separate the real treatments they prescribe from the pseudo treatments. I suspect these are smart people can and do help many patients feel better but I don't trust anyone who tries to claim that Naturopathy is scientific, as they do on their website. And I'm very distrustful of people who provide a willy nilly mix of real and pseudo-scientific treatments as though they are all equally efficacious in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary.
So, I can't say whether or not they might help you but I do know that alternative medicine is often just a very big placebo that provides the care and service that real doctors so often don't.
Amanda,
What are the pressure settings on your machine?
How much sleep ARE you getting?
Den
What are the pressure settings on your machine?
How much sleep ARE you getting?
Den
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05
I have my pressure set at a range of 8.5 min to 14 max.
The C-Flex is set on 2, and the humidifier is on 2 or 3 depending on how cold and dry the air is on a particular night.
I usually get between 7-8 hours of sleep on the weekdays (go to bed around midnight and wake up about 8 am); and I usually go to bed a little later and sleep in until around noon or 1 pm on the weekends. At least I am no longer sleeping in until 2 or 3 pm on the weekends...
Here are my stats so far for December:
Avg 90% pres = 9.7
Avg pres = 9.1
Peak avg pres = 9.2
Avg non-responsive apnea/hypopnea index = 0.0
Avg obstructive apnea index: 0.7
Avg hypopnea index: 0.6
Avg AHI: 1.3
Avg flow limitation: 1.0
Vibratory snore index: 0.1
Avg max leak: 62.8
Avg 90% leak: 41.9
Avg leak: 37.9
Average large leak: 0 mins
Time in apnea per day: 10.1 sec
On the graphs of the pressures, the 90% pressure seems to shift back and forth between about 9 and 10.
Here are my stats just from the night before last:
90% pressure = 10
Avg pressure = 9.1
AHI: 0.1
Large leak: 0.0% of night
Avg leak: 38.92
Flow limitation 0.5
As far as I can tell, the numbers seem okay. So I should be feeling better. Which I kind of am, but it's "better" as in "less crappy than before.
Not "better" as in "good."
The C-Flex is set on 2, and the humidifier is on 2 or 3 depending on how cold and dry the air is on a particular night.
I usually get between 7-8 hours of sleep on the weekdays (go to bed around midnight and wake up about 8 am); and I usually go to bed a little later and sleep in until around noon or 1 pm on the weekends. At least I am no longer sleeping in until 2 or 3 pm on the weekends...
Here are my stats so far for December:
Avg 90% pres = 9.7
Avg pres = 9.1
Peak avg pres = 9.2
Avg non-responsive apnea/hypopnea index = 0.0
Avg obstructive apnea index: 0.7
Avg hypopnea index: 0.6
Avg AHI: 1.3
Avg flow limitation: 1.0
Vibratory snore index: 0.1
Avg max leak: 62.8
Avg 90% leak: 41.9
Avg leak: 37.9
Average large leak: 0 mins
Time in apnea per day: 10.1 sec
On the graphs of the pressures, the 90% pressure seems to shift back and forth between about 9 and 10.
Here are my stats just from the night before last:
90% pressure = 10
Avg pressure = 9.1
AHI: 0.1
Large leak: 0.0% of night
Avg leak: 38.92
Flow limitation 0.5
As far as I can tell, the numbers seem okay. So I should be feeling better. Which I kind of am, but it's "better" as in "less crappy than before.
Not "better" as in "good."
_________________
| Mask | |
|
Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge.
-Kahlil Gibran
-Kahlil Gibran
naturopathic medicine
Naturapathis and other health food and alternative things will always have a built in following.
I am not one of them.
Most are BS. imho. fwiw.
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Twas the night before Christmas and everyone was feeling Mary.
I am not one of them.
Most are BS. imho. fwiw.
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Twas the night before Christmas and everyone was feeling Mary.
Amanda,amandalee wrote:I have my pressure set at a range of 8.5 min to 14 max.
The C-Flex is set on 2, and the humidifier is on 2 or 3 depending on how cold and dry the air is on a particular night.
I usually get between 7-8 hours of sleep on the weekdays (go to bed around midnight and wake up about 8 am); and I usually go to bed a little later and sleep in until around noon or 1 pm on the weekends. At least I am no longer sleeping in until 2 or 3 pm on the weekends...
Here are my stats so far for December:
Avg 90% pres = 9.7
Avg pres = 9.1
Peak avg pres = 9.2
Avg non-responsive apnea/hypopnea index = 0.0
Avg obstructive apnea index: 0.7
Avg hypopnea index: 0.6
Avg AHI: 1.3
Avg flow limitation: 1.0
Vibratory snore index: 0.1
Avg max leak: 62.8
Avg 90% leak: 41.9
Avg leak: 37.9
Average large leak: 0 mins
Time in apnea per day: 10.1 sec
On the graphs of the pressures, the 90% pressure seems to shift back and forth between about 9 and 10.
Here are my stats just from the night before last:
90% pressure = 10
Avg pressure = 9.1
AHI: 0.1
Large leak: 0.0% of night
Avg leak: 38.92
Flow limitation 0.5
As far as I can tell, the numbers seem okay. So I should be feeling better. Which I kind of am, but it's "better" as in "less crappy than before.
Not "better" as in "good."
Yes, your stats DO look good.
If you want to try it, I'd suggest trying it in single pressure mode of around 9 or 10......maybe a week of each at a time.
If you decide to try it, please let us know how things go.
Den
(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05
"Passover" Humidification - ResMed Ultra Mirage FF - Encore Pro w/Card Reader & MyEncore software - Chiroflow pillow
User since 05/14/05
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Perchancetodream
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:41 pm
- Location: 29 Palms, CA
Why not find a general practice doctor who will listen to you and work for you, and not for your employer?
According to your stats, it doesn't look like apnea is causing you to feel "crappy." Fatigue can be a symptom of a lot of different things that have science based tests and treatments.
If you are interested in alternatives, why not try acupuncture? At least that is a time tested therapy and may be of some help if there are no known causes for your continuing fatigue.
Good luck,
Susan
According to your stats, it doesn't look like apnea is causing you to feel "crappy." Fatigue can be a symptom of a lot of different things that have science based tests and treatments.
If you are interested in alternatives, why not try acupuncture? At least that is a time tested therapy and may be of some help if there are no known causes for your continuing fatigue.
Good luck,
Susan
"If space is really a vacuum, who changes the bag?" George Carlin
Most alternative medicine is "time tested." However, "scientifically tested" is much better than time tested since "time testing" is known to be very supportive of all manner of flummery. Science is what we use to separate what really works from what merely seems to work. As to acupuncture, it does seem to have some effect on pain management however claims of "Chi", "meridians" and general efficacy beyond simple pain management are so much "time tested" bunk. However, at least acupuncture is relatively harmless as long as it is not used for a substitute for proper medical treatment of a health threatening condition.Perchancetodream wrote: If you are interested in alternatives, why not try acupuncture? At least that is a time tested therapy and may be of some help if there are no known causes for your continuing fatigue.
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onecoknower
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:46 pm
Naturopaths? No opinion, really. Doctors who really listen? In my opinion, worth the extra cost.
My experience? I've been on cpap nearly a year, and have been sleeping more soundly but not feeling better. I switched dr's recently to one who really listens and he was the only one to ask if I was feeling better (not if my clinical results were good).
Interesting thing I learned: if you have low progesterone or abnormal cortisol levels, you could be sleeping but not experiencing the benefits, as these two hormones control your circadian rythm.
For what it's worth...
My experience? I've been on cpap nearly a year, and have been sleeping more soundly but not feeling better. I switched dr's recently to one who really listens and he was the only one to ask if I was feeling better (not if my clinical results were good).
Interesting thing I learned: if you have low progesterone or abnormal cortisol levels, you could be sleeping but not experiencing the benefits, as these two hormones control your circadian rythm.
For what it's worth...