It offers a time line of how the posts devolve into flame wars which I think is hugely revealing. If you don't do the reading, you won't have an appreciation for that. It offers my own reflections on the wisdom of futile dialogue with a poster whose morality and intent are in question. Personally, I cannot brook the thought of tolerating continued deliberately distorted posts, nor provocation simply for the sake of provocation. For those who would believe it is best to just ignore the abundant examples of well documented fabrications and deliberate distortions of my posts, with the sole intent of being able to "get along", I would respectively disagree.
If outright lies (and yes, I mean that word) and deliberate attempts to misconstrue what was said are not called by the names that they have earned, because of a desire "keep the peace", then I need a change in venue. I would respectively suggest that those who would read the posts I refer to would have no trouble confirming that they indeed are chock full of distortions and even fabricatons of what I said.
There is a world of difference between this and the exchange of intelligent discourse between two people who are diametrically opposed on a particular issue Certainly, I have seen this happen many times in many situations. It happens all day every day in a teaching hospital such as where I work. Spirited conversations and hard argued points of view are virtually a requisite of meaningful communication on difficult issues. Disagreement is the norm, as is the need to defend a point of view.
It is quite something else, however, when fabrications and deliberate distortions are tolerated or expected to be ignored. Repeatedly and deliberately misconstruing the statements of another are where I draw the line. I wouldn't expect others to put up with it, and will not myself. If it requires bluntly calling a spade a spade, I will do so. It ain't pretty to watch, but it is even uglier to let it stand unchallenged. However, others may feel that the forum requires "free speech" by any definition.
What the forum requires is for thoughtful readers to avoid shortcutting to parroting " can't we all just get along" and another chorus of Kumbaya. The issue isn't about getting along at all costs, as much as it is tolerating fabrications and deliberate distortions. If you've read the post thoroughly, then I thoroughly respect your informed opinion, whatever it may be. If you have only bothered to reflexively repeat the "just ignore the public fabrications and misrepresentation of your own postings", I would ask you to examine the wisdom in that. It's a choice, but it should be an informed choice, IMHO.
For those of you keeping track at home, I have now officially had a grand total of four interactions with Nighthawkeye. All have been distinctly unpleasant, which I have found to an astonishing exception in a board filled with such helpful, caring people.
Please read through or at least skim through this post to get to the"good part" at the bottom. It contains a compromise I can live with, but it is only my version of "what is fair". You be the judge. Your wish is my command. I came here to learn and share, and at this point, I feel that my presence has become a distraction. It is a circus that I did not ask to join, and yet the easy way out, just pretending that it's OK to fib and fool folks, is not an acceptable option to me. I can't very well ignore the "elephant in the room".
Thread #1: This Won’t be Easy – Feb 5 2007
Remarkably, NHE’s very first post to any of my threads includes all of the following statement of fact:
Post #1:
1)
2)There is nothing at all difficult or expensive about testing or treating apnea
the medical community makes it both difficult and expensive to diagnose and treat.
3)
4)physicians elevate the cost of an inexpensive test to thousands of dollars
Followed by another statement of fact about the “medical community” imbedded into a question he poses:It's important to take charge of your therapy personally rather than depending on a physician, few of whom seem to suffer from apnea themselves.
Post #2 includes:Why does that not happen in the medical community where examples of inefficiency, laziness and corruption abound?
1)
2)I don't buy the argument for one second that the practice of medicine is so complex and challenging
(He’s referring to the medical community).You do yourself a great disservice by trying to defend them.
3)
Post #3 was more of the same with many claims being attribute to me which had basis in fact. If you read the thread in it’s entirety, you will see that I refuse to carry on further dialogue with NHE because of his unwillingness to substantiate his numerous false claims.At any rate, the diagnosis and treatment of sleep apnea is neither overly complex, nor overly challenging.
Later, in another thread when he was again confronted with this unfortunate habit of attributing unsubstantiated claims to me, he explained away the missing documentation thusly:
I have my own opinion about how plausible the explanation was when I saw that he had found time to reply to numerous other less onerous tasks on this board, while backpedaling furiously away from that disgrace.“The biggest problem I had with your challenges previously was that, like a shotgun blast, there were so many of them at once. It was impossible for my (admittedly limited) congnitive ability to process them all at once, much less respond to them in anything like a reasonable time frame. I have to work for a living, raise a family, solve real-world problems, etc.advice that people may take serious.”
Our next encounter was on this thread:
Thread #2 Negative impressions of the business on February 13, where NHE gratuitously demonstrated that he had absolutely no bias against the medical community as a whole, or doctors in particular by posting this without being prompted:
At this point, I recalled something that I had professed in my first thread with NHE:Here, quote this mantra twenty times:
[indoctrination ON]
My medical professionals are highly educated, hard-working, dedicated individuals who are intensely interested in my best personal welfare.
[indoctrination OFF]
All better now? Just remember, the doc knows best.
At this juncture, I chose to tackle the issue by posting under a nom de plume, a decision I would regret later. (See: Mea Culpa). My reason for this was I wanted the issue of the blatant slamming of a community to be the focus, and not be distracted by the messenger.drB: “I am not rising to the defense of physicians who are ignorant. I am calling your broad labeling of an entire community baseless and uncalled for. The greater disservice is saying nothing in the face of such a reckless accusation.”
In a later post, i.e. Mea Culpa, NHE stated:
NHE went on to further rant in the thread:Why should you apologize for this at all, doc? Personally, I'd prefer that you continue to post under an assumed moniker. That way, your arguments will stand or fall on their own merits - just the naked truth please. I don't see that you have anything to apologize for.
What followed is easy to evaluate. If you’d like to form your own opinion, please read the post. It is not pretty. NHE meekly ends with:[sarcasm ON] After all, they're highly educated, dedicated professionals. There's no need for that sort of thing. [sarcasm OFF]
Having been recently lambasted for opinions which were not sufficiently caveated to the likings of others (as you have caveated my foregoing work in great detail), I just wanted to make sure that that no one mistook my chicken-scratchings for a disciplined scientific treatise.
This is a far cry from the assertation that he would later make in the Mea Culpa post:
Oh, really? NHE, see disconnect above. There was no attempt to discredit, and I will leave to others to judge the validity of your assertions of the brutal beating you inflicted on poor Saleepy. (Somewhere, Tarik Aziz sits speechless, in awe of your ability to tell a tall tale with conviction.)As I recall, you attempted to discredit me under an assumed name, but failed. Let your failed arguments rest in peace. Without an MD or Dr beside your moniker your arguments had few merits and no traction.
THREAD #3: Pap Aromatherapy - Worth consideration
In this thread I offered an opinion about SleepGuy’s clever idea.
Guess who couldn’t wait to join me??
NHE’s intial contribution to this thread included the following beauties:
NHE:
ah, all this razzle dazzle from the gentleman who had been called onto the carpet for trotting out opinions as statements of fact. How ironic to now have assumed the mantle, and feel comfortable enough to dole out sentiments of approval.“Good on ya, doc. You state up front that this is an opinion. Opinions are what this forum is about. Opinions are what makes this forum great.”
So, my statement that “having a mask strapped onto your face while turbo charged air is blown into your pharynx is not comfortable for a variety of reasons” and that this is “one of the most prevalent reasons for giving up treatment” was not even close to the what you would have guessed. I see. You’re not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, are you NHE? That wouldn’t be like you at all.drbandage wrote:Hmm . . ., based on the postings to this forum, I would have guessed that the most prevalent reasons folks give up on treatment are:One of the most prevalent reasons for giving up on OSA treatment is quite obvious: having a mask strapped onto your face while turbo charged air is blown into your pharynx is not comfortable for a variety of reasons.
- incorrect treatment pressure
- ill fitting mask
- sinus blockage
- aerophagia
- CPAP intolerant - BiPAP needed
- CPAP intolerant - APAP needed
So, . . . this wouldn’t apply to them . . . right? It would then apply to “other folks”, get it? You’re just trying to be helpful, I’m sure.NHE: ”Most folks seem to get over claustrophobia quickly, within a day or two, although a few may take longer. “
As I stated in my first sentence, it is only my opinion. Dictionary defines Conjecture: the formation or expression of an opinion or theory. You’re not trying to be argumentative, are you NHE?drbandage wrote:NHE:From a purely scientific view point, there are some compelling reasons why the diffusion device may prove beneficial.This is purely conjecture on your part, doc, not science.
Yes, that’s why I asserted only that it “may prove beneficial” Get it? You’re not trying to be argumentative are you, NHE?NHE: “Sure, the device may prove beneficial, but then again, it may not.”
Nor has one been declared. But thanks for clarifying your conversation with your self-made straw man. You just won another agrument with yourself, bravo!NHE: “No causal relationship for effectiveness of this product has been established.”
Yes, prolly that would have never crossed anyone’s mind. (Psssst . . . . that’s why they call them “experiments”, NHE.) Then again, you never know if you don't try, right NHE?NHE: “It may ultimately prove to be a waste of time and money for those who choose to experiment with it.”
NHE delivers knock out blow to his own noggin.NHE:"It seems like a cruel hoax . . ."
NHE:"the device may prove beneficial"
Um. I didn’t state that it would. And I’m pretty sure that’s not what Bret had intended. But, you’ve won another argument with yourself! You’re very skilled at that.NHE: This product will not resolve any of the most prevalent compliance issues listed above.
I’m sure you’re just trying to be your same helpful self in pointing out the obvious, as opposed to being contrary.NHE: Because of chemical sensitivities and allergies, which many people have, there is also the real possibility that this product may do more harm than good.
NHE, what are you actually implying . . . ? You’re not actually trying to pick a fight are you?drbandage wrote:
. . . essential oils . . .
NHE: Is this snake oil, doc?
Perhaps you merely overlooked it, NHE, but I merely posted an opinion, prominently labeled as such, on a public message board. But thanks for your concern.NHE: “Perhaps you merely overlooked it, but as a physician endorsing a product would you care to add a legal disclaimer here? “
Ultimately, Snoredog pointed out that
“you sound like a damn ambulance chaser lawyer, no wonder the medical profession rarely offers any suggestions. All he is saying is there may be something to it worth considering. In the end it is your choice.”
In response, you reflexively shrieked:
“He's not merely offering a suggestion, he's endorsing the product. His post reads like an infomercial, for crying out loud. To get to that endorsement, he's stated that there are scientifically compelling reasons . . .”
NHE, are you totally oblivious to the fact that my statement was exactly this: “from a purely scientific view point, there are some compelling reasons why the diffusion device may prove beneficial”.
And, no I do not use those reasons to "endorse" anything. I mentioned scientifcally compelling reasons why it MAY work. I specifically did not say that these reasons explain why it DOES work. Bill, you're putting words in my mouth again. Naughty boy.
The nuances of my statements seemingly are utterly lost on you, perhaps in your haste to put a negative spin on them. In my opinion, it’s too bad, as you are not unintelligent, just lacking insight into your deficit, much less understanding the reasons for it, or having the motivation to do anything about it.
Again, another well respected poster informed NHE:
“With all due respect, your personal vendetta against Dr. B is getting tiresome. You are acting like a petulant child who didn't get his way and as a result is looking for a fight.”
And yet veteran poster opined:
“Welcome Doc, to the real world of forums such as this.
You nail it well. For some it is an entertaining chat lounge for compulsive posters who have a need to make gratuitous rejoinders to any posting. Some come with ideas straight out of National Enquirer. They clearly cannot differentiate fact from sophistry. Then they come with nothing but ad hominens instead of questioning the premise.”
Remarkably in this same thread, you state:
Then, when given the opportunity to do so, you only manage to pitifully bleat:I'm quite willing to substantiate, or admit I'm wrong . . .
I see, NHE, your own stinky cow pies were coming back at you faster than you could handle them. You sound like a very busy man, and I, a lowly doctor with an overabundance of time on my hands, no family to attend to, and the freedom from the need to work for a living, or solve any real world problems, etc. should have eased up on you until you had a chance to reload. How insensitive of me.“The biggest problem I had with your challenges previously was that, like a shotgun blast, there were so many of them at once. It was impossible for my (admittedly limited) congnitive ability to process them all at once, much less respond to them in anything like a reasonable time frame. I have to work for a living, raise a family, solve real-world problems, etc.advice that people may take serious.”
GIVE ME A BREAK!!
THREAD #4 Mea Culpa
After a heartfelt confession from me, and some gentle consoling words from several other posters, NHE, sees another opportune moment to dispense his indispensable wisdom in Post #1:
Given the depth of the insight this man has into the workings of his subconsious mind, why would he even consider the need to add the caveat "that I am aware of " to the end of his statement.Blarg, since SaLeepy directed some of his postings at me, I can tell you that it didn't make any real difference in how I perceived or responded.
Excellent gambit here. Subtly assoicate yourself with a reasonable person, and people may confuse you for one as well.Like Kathy, I sensed the similarity and the thought in my mind was that SaLeepy was either drbandage or someone with a similar mindset who had read our recent exchanges and was mimicking the behavior.
This is quickly followed by one of NHE’s familar subtle taunts:
Unfortunately, it was impossible for Saleepy with his “admittedly limited congnitive ability” to process your “request, much less respond to it in anything like a reasonable time frame”. Saleepy has to “work for a living, raise a family, solve real-world problems, etc. advice that people may take serious.”NHE: “I also seem to recall that my good-natured challenge to SaLeepy went unanswered.”
Post #2 arrives in which NHE feels perky enough to strike up a conversation with himself.
What a difference a day makes!
He then goes on without prompting to opine that
Yes, folks, read it again. That is indeed what the man was feared. Get in the air raid shelters before Dr. Boogie seizes control of your mind and soul!!!!!!“this forum was on its way to becoming just another vessel, among thousands, for those in the medical community to dictate their views”
And then, he is moved to channel what the Demonic Doc and his ilk are likely thinking:”from their perspective, maybe it's simply enlightening those of us who are not the highly educated, dedicated, and caring professionals they view themselves to be”
But, he’s just getting started at this point.
he asks himself, deftly setting himself up for for another hare-brained assault.NHE: “ . . and just what was this mea culpa for?”
How ironic that he is once again putting forth his personal opinion as global fact. He hasn't seemed to notice the prevailing consensus (in this and the other thread) is that it is HIS attempt to discredit YOU that failed. It is HIS arguments that failed.NightHawkeye wrote:
As I recall, you attempted to discredit me under an assumed name, but failed. So be it. Let your failed arguments rest in peace. Without an MD or Dr beside your moniker your arguments had few merits and no traction.
Since he is incapable of seeing the truth, he will always contend any arguments against him failed. He's all alone in his fantasy world, but that's the way it has to be. It's the only way he can always be right. He has just proved why it is pointless to attempt to engage in factual, intelligent conversation.
(An interested third party PM’ed me the above response. I agree wholeheartedly, but can’t take the credit for it.)
NHE continues:
Translation: “you kicked my ass pretty badly". Prediction: rationalization to follow.”“I also believe in giving credit where credit is due, doc. I had gotten sloppy in my posts.”
NHE delivers as if on cue:
“I suppose that's because finding flaws with medical practice these days is like picking low hanging fruit. There's just so much to pick from . . . and I got sloppy.”
Nicely stated example of insincere praise, NHE.NHE: “I truly appreciate the fact that you pointed this out to me.”
Oh boy, you really are delusional.NHE: “I can make better arguments, and I will.”
That’s NHE, always looking out for the welfare of the board! What a guy!(Cue cackle from any board member who may be off his or her rocker.)NHE: “Hopefully, this board will be the better for it.”
This is where he attempts to change the focus, describe his accomplishments and solicit congratulations. How pathetic. That bruised ego needs some serious sucking up and he's not too proud to ask for it. Hell, he desperately NEEDS it at this point. I'm holding my breath and hoping no one falls for it. If they do, I hope someone says, "How wonderful to learn you do have an area of expertise where you can be successful in your endeavors." But it would probably go right over his head.NightHawkeye wrote:
Yesterday, I was fortunate enough to come up with a solution to a complex and challenging problem, which will result in another patent application, and I'm fairly sure that a patent for it will be granted. I feel good . . ., and proud.
(Again, this was penned by another board member,so I can’t take the credit for the astute analysis.)
In the wild and woolly world wide web where any fool with a keyboard can spout off with reckless abandon, folks like NHE go unchecked unless they are shamed by the Village. I don't see it happening now, or any time soon. The format suits him better than anything he could find in the "real world". Myself, I need to be able to let ideas set sail without having to contend with the bufoonery that is let loose as soon as “the doc” posts.
He has posted deliberately provocative and deceitful posts virtually immediately after my last two efforts to discuss topics that ought to draw no such thing. Would it be unreasonable to speculate that he is lying in wait for his next chance to "duke it out with the doc" with the same predictably lamentable results?
A good deal of what he has posted is "reframed" and synthesized to suit his reality and continue to fancy himself the martyr who God tapped upon the shoulder to do battle with the evil interloper. It's illogical to try to have a logical arguement with someone whose alignment is so tweaked (ever seen a car moving down the road when the car isn't headed the same direction the wheels are headed?), so why do it?
It is a fool's errand to try to "defeat him", of course, as each time it is done it only encourages him further. But, it is absolutely untenable to let him malign me with innuendo and outright lies and his "morality be damned" distortions of what I have posted.
I'm not feeling the victim, I'm just feeling miscast, and feel my limited energy and resources are not paying the kind of dividends they would in another yet to be determined place. Being a stranger in a strange land can be fun, but not always, and not here. I need to be able to post without having to contend with mean spirited distortions that spew unabated from his pie hole.
My take is that this kind of problem is virtually a given when the population of the board is made up of all comers. It's inherent in the structure of the venue. It is certainly not like this with the same topic in a structured environment where Robert's Rules of Order are in play, and Feces Disturbers do not have unlimited access to the microphone.
Sleep apnea is a tough topic, but the venue itself allows unsubstantiated statements, vague generalities and all manner of pseudo science to pop up. When no one chooses to challenge the obvious inaccuracy, or mention the leap in logic, then we are left with a mish mash of truth, fiction, and unknowns. The board deserve better, IMHO. If you like the sound of your own voice, this is a safe haven, and your kind of place.
Here are a collection of messages that have been posted or PM’d to me about NHE:
With any luck, NightHawkeye will quickly disappear from the forum forever.
Your posts to NightHawkeye in the "negative impressions of this business" thread were right on the money.
NightHawkeye has apparently made it his mission in life to dog you. How unfortunate.
It is so sad that others don’t confront him. There seems to be an absence of backbone on this forum.
I hope your skin is thick enough to weather the slings and arrows of those who like to unload their built up hostilities and mistrust of any authority figure or icon.
So Dr B. Thanks for sharing your humanity. Please keep sharing your wisdom.
I would not be surprised if you are considering leaving this board in disgust.
I'm sorry you haven’t received more support, including my own.
Some of us do not seem capable of taking a stand for fear of offending someone; even when it is someone who (in my opinion) deserves to be offended.
Fool that I am, I'm still holding out hope he'll disappear from the radar completely.
Hang in there doc.
As a descriptive term, I think that NHE may have some unpleasant flavor of a narcissism.
“getting attention had little to do with my prior postings. OK, I've enjoyed it”
“I'm a humble person, doc.”
“I'm again flattered to have merited this attention”
(false humility in play, here)“My admittedly limited congnitive ability”
“I am also flattered that my words stand out among those 20+ posts”
In your dreams, NHE. What a wonderful forum that would be for you, Knowing how you shun the spotlight, it is a very magnanimous offer. Seriously, NHE, are you obsessed with me? I have already made it abundantly clear that I have not interest in you or you opinions. I wish you felt the same way about me.“Here's what I propose to you, doc, since you apparently are willing to entertain dialogue with me again: How about you ask me one simple question, and I'll respond to it. Afterwards, I'll ask you one simple question and await your response. We'll then simply keep this up until we've worked through the backlog of questions.”
NHE, there are few times I would go this far, but I would state it in court if need be: from the way you write and respond, my medical opinon is that you do indeed have a significant psychosocial afflication, most likely a personality disorder, and would likely benefit from an evalution and treatment from a trained professional, specifically a psychologist or psychiatrtist.
Although I am not board certified in psychiatry, I do have a significant background in the area, and have seen enough here to know that you are not well. You seem to exhibit a psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem. Narcissists' behavior can be observed as slight annoyance or paranoiac rancor, aiming to to repair an injustice. This kind of behavior usually signals the existence of some unresolved psychic injury. A narcissistic wound is unrelieved and the need for revenge in unquenchable so long as shame persists.
Why would I want to try to point this out? Number one, it is indeed possible that you may actually be interested in some introspection here. Absent that, I am hoping that you may find a way to allow me to post without seeing it as your own personal red flag and your cue to misrepresent my statements.
Since you requested that I consider a legal disclaimer, here it is, in its entirety: “I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.”
THE COMPROMISE:
Now, if you’ll just quit trashing my front yard, I would be very happy to never darken your door again, even if you were to go off again about the Medico-Industrial Corruptive Machine. But if you follow me post to post, as he have on my last three, and have nothing to contribute but venom, what are the choices? None are good.
My simple proposal to you is this:
Let’s pretend.Henceforth, my posts are invisible to you. Your posts are invisible to me.
Otherwise, I think I will just ease off into the ether, not bitter, but wiser. I have more to offer, but not in the current environment. I need to be in a place where the village elders rise up in righteous indignation when someone acts the fool, poisoning the waterhole.
Let the tribe speak. I will abide their wishes.
