Sleep disorders NOT apnea

[pgflrob]

I was diagnosed with sleep apnea in spring. I use CPAP. I was re-tested and the test indicates the CPAP pretty much cures my apnea from a sleep diagnostic aspect.

But the symptoms have come back -- these symptoms are CLASSIC sleep deprivation. As an experiment I went one week using, and one week NOT using, the machine. There is NO difference -- except my spouse says sometimes I snore off the machine.

My doc(s) -- I got a second opinion -- says whatever is causing this is NOT apnea because of the tests and their reading of my machine's data output. I have used oximeter and the levels are very good. There is nothing else any doc can find going on (via blood tests, imaging, etc.). I go to bed 10ish sometimes a bit earlier. I always get at least eight hours "sleep". I dream like crazy. Never used to.

So, my question is: has anyone else every heard of a person discovering another cause for sleep issues not due to apnea? I am not under any form of stress or emotional problems. I don't do drugs, eat well, consume alcohol once or twice a week -- a beer or a glass of wine with meal. Is there some other neurological testing for REM sleep that has nothing to do with apnea.

[MbMinx]

I work with a girl who suffers from some form of narcolepsy (not the catatonic kind). She has very similar symptoms to mine with daytime sleepiness, foggy brain, etc. but she has no apnea. They were able to do additional neurologic/sleep testing to eventually get her a diagnosis. What test? I don't know, but it may be worth mentioning to your sleep doctor.

[ChicagoGranny]

has anyone else every heard of a person discovering another cause for sleep issues not due to apnea?

Of course there are other causes of sleep problems. A neighbor's dog barking all night long is just one example.

I was diagnosed with sleep apnea in spring.

If it was obstructive sleep apnea, it is not going away except in unusual circumstances. Any unusual things during the study or since?

says whatever is causing this is NOT apnea because of the tests and their reading of my machine's data output

You and your doctor seem to be confused. If you are using the machine and the process is working properly, the machine's data would show no apneas because it is preventing them.

So please elaborate on how you are convinced you no longer have sleep apnea.

[Julie]

It would be great if you could post results of your study. And then get a referral to a neurologist (with some background in sleep problems). Even if 100 people here had sleep related issues aside from apnea, that has no bearing on what could be your problems and only a doctor can tell. You could have anything from anemia to med-induced issues, thyroid trouble, some lesser known but serious sleep-wake disorders... and you can probably find websites with 1,000 symptoms (all overlapping) that might meet some of your criteria, but you need a doctor. Don't wait for us to diagnose you here.

[ChicagoGranny]

And then get a referral to a neurologist

Julie, If he has obstructive sleep apnea, a visit with a neurologist is a waste of time and money.

[kteague]

Absolutely. I've read that there are over 80 recognized sleep disorders. Have more than one myself (also have Periodic Limb Movement Disorder). Fortunately, therapeutic treatment of the OSA narrows the field of things to be considered. As a baseline, I'd suggest you scrutinize your detailed sleep study reports and your machine data for any clues. A blanket statement from the doctor saying that your OSA is resolved by the treatment is really not enough to be sure. Resolved to them may just mean your AHI with treatment is under the diagnostic cutoff of 5. Well, an AHI of 4.9 could be devastating to the sleep quality of some and leave them with daytime symptoms. Also, not all sleep studies are able to capture the full extent of a person's condition. It can only capture how you slept that one night. Say for instance during that night you did not reach REM while supine. My doctor terms that a technically suboptimal study. Had I reached REM while supine, my results may have been different. That's what I mean about examining your reports for clues. Was there any mention in the reports of limb movements? Maybe your OSA is absolutely well treated and you'll need to rule out other contributors. Please do diligently continue your CPAP treatment. The presence of another sleep disorder is usually independent of the OSA diagnosis, and the OSA will need treated regardless of if you still have symptoms from another source. Before my sleep disorders were diagnosed and treated, my doctor had run some tests that had come back negative. He gave me those results in a dismissive tone, as if that's the end of that. I was at the point where I desperately needed answers. Told him that it doesn't help me to know what it's not, that I needed to know what it is, so to keep going until he could tell me why I felt like I felt.

Best wishes figuring all this out.

[OkyDoky]

I saw in another of your posts that Pugsy suggested Sleepyhead. If you have this now and post a screen shot here someone may be able to see something to help that isn't reflected in the numbers completely. I hope you doctor looked at more than mine. He had the 30 day SD download from the DME at my 3 month appt. and that's all he looked at while I had my SD card and printed reports from Sleepyhead and Encore. He stated he didn't need to see them. I'm thankful for Sleepyhead and this forum.

[Julie]

Sorry, but apart from snoring (which in itself is not diagnostic of apnea), I did not see where he absolutely was diagnosed with obstructive anything, and don't make assumptions based on nothing. If he does have other sleep related problems, a neurologist is what I suggest he see based on my work background and knowledge of sleep problems.

[Lazer1234]

Yes, Lyme Disease is one that could cause that.

[chunkyfrog]

My AHI was in that range for 3 or 4 months until it settled down.
Who knows what it was in the four months before I had access to that data?
Sometimes all it takes is time, or a better mask, or better settings.
Stick around--you are almost there!

[FredToo]

You mentioned that you are now dreaming and you used to not dream prior to CPAP. I assume you mentioned that because you realize the significance of that? In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.

I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep, so it should be telling you the same thing. But that certainly does not mean I jump out of bed every morning ready to lick the world. There can be a lot of issues at play here, and Apnea may or may not be one of them. I have found that doctors can be sometimes pretty easily led down the wrong path due to the information we give them. If you say you are not sleeping well, then he/she is likely to go down that road.

If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?

Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !
FredToo

[palerider]

In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.
I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep,
If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?
Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !

that's all pretty much wrong.

first, REM sleep is not deep sleep, they're two quite different sleep stages (check out any hypnogram).

second, I dreamed a lot when I had severe apnea.

third, if you don't wake up pretty soon after, or during, your dream, you typically won't remember them.

and, fourth, you do dream in other stages besides REM.

draw your own conclusions.

[Wulfman...]

I was diagnosed with sleep apnea in spring. I use CPAP. I was re-tested and the test indicates the CPAP pretty much cures my apnea from a sleep diagnostic aspect.

But the symptoms have come back -- these symptoms are CLASSIC sleep deprivation. As an experiment I went one week using, and one week NOT using, the machine. There is NO difference -- except my spouse says sometimes I snore off the machine.

My doc(s) -- I got a second opinion -- says whatever is causing this is NOT apnea because of the tests and their reading of my machine's data output. I have used oximeter and the levels are very good. There is nothing else any doc can find going on (via blood tests, imaging, etc.). I go to bed 10ish sometimes a bit earlier. I always get at least eight hours "sleep". I dream like crazy. Never used to.

So, my question is: has anyone else every heard of a person discovering another cause for sleep issues not due to apnea? I am not under any form of stress or emotional problems. I don't do drugs, eat well, consume alcohol once or twice a week -- a beer or a glass of wine with meal. Is there some other neurological testing for REM sleep that has nothing to do with apnea.

Based on the little information you've given us.......and the fact that you have an APAP and a nasal mask listed in your profile, I would strongly suspect that your therapy is ineffective. Either your APAP is set to a wide pressure range and it is incapable of providing the proper pressures......and/or......the pressure changes are disturbing your sleep......and/or......you're leaking your therapy air out your mouth during the night. Any or all of those could contribute to the feelings you're describing.


Den

.

[Wulfman...]

In order to dream, you need to reach a deep sleep state, something that most Apnea sufferers cannot do.
I rarely dreamed before CPAP and now I do. This tells me that I am reaching REM (deep) sleep,
If you are dreaming, you are sleeping. Your tiredness may be from something else, even though you are sleeping well?
Just an uneducated opinion, but worth every penny paid for it !

that's all pretty much wrong.

first, REM sleep is not deep sleep, they're two quite different sleep stages (check out any hypnogram).

second, I dreamed a lot when I had severe apnea.

third, if you don't wake up pretty soon after, or during, your dream, you typically won't remember them.

and, fourth, you do dream in other stages besides REM.

draw your own conclusions.

I agree with "palerider".


Den

.

[FredToo]

I know that you are right about that, but man have we got a lot of other people to convince !


What are Dreams?
Dreams happen during the rapid eye movement (REM) stage of sleep . In a typical night, you dream for a total of 2 hours, broken up by the sleep cycle. Researchers do not know much about how we dream or why. They do know that newborns dream and that depriving rats of REM sleep greatly shortens their lives. Other mammals and birds also have REM sleep stages, but cold-blooded animals such as turtles, lizards and fish do not.
REM Sleep and Dreaming
REM sleep usually begins after a period of deep sleep known as stage 4 sleep. An area of the brain called the pons--where REM sleep signals originate--shuts off signals to the spinal cord. That causes the body to be immobile during REM sleep. When the pons doesn't shut down the spinal cord's signals, people will act out their dreams. This can be dangerous because acting out dreams without input from the senses can lead a person to run into walls, fall down stairs or worse. This condition is rare and different from more common sleepwalking and known as “REM sleep behavior disorder.”

The pons also sends signals to cerebral cortex by way of the thalamus (which is a filter and relay for sensory information and motor control functions deep in the brain). The cerebral cortex is the part of the brain involved with processing information (learning, thinking and organizing). The areas of the brain “turned on” during REM sleep seem to help learning and memory. Infants spend almost 50 percent of their sleep time in REM sleep (compared to 20 percent for adults), which may be explained by the tremendous amount of learning in infancy. If people are taught various skills and then deprived of REM sleep, they often cannot remember what they were taught.