Is there any way to infer sleep quality from "home data"?

[old dude]

I know very little about the scientific aspects of sleep, so forgive me if this a bit layman-ish; it is. I do know that the only real way to tell a lot about sleep and it's stages is with an EEG and other sophisticated equipment not found in the average home.

But I'm wondering if there's any way (no oximetry either) to tell anything about the quality and depth of one's sleep form the data found in Encore Basic and/or SleepyHead that these programs have gleaned from your home machine? I'm guessing that the waveforms in EB might lend a clue if anything would, but that's just a guess.

Or alternatively if one's numbers are OK is how you feel the next day the best gauge?

[robysue]

Or alternatively if one's numbers are OK is how you feel the next day the best gauge?

Yes, if your numbers are ok, then how you feel the next day is the best gauge of how well you slept. If you are waking up feeling refreshed and rested and your AHI and leak numbers are fine, then you can assume it was a (very) good night's sleep. And if you don't feel so good (but your numbers are fine), then it was likely just a bad night's sleep: After all, even folks without any sleep disorders sometimes have bad nights and don't wake up feeling refreshed and rested.

It's important to not over think things. (And yes, I'm the pot calling the kettle black here: One of my biggest problems is over thinking things.)

[jnk]

In harmony with Robysue's great answer,

your home machine gathers information about how you breathe, not so much how you sleep.

However, since you used the word "infer,"

it is true that a night of sleep that was disturbed (by noise or pain or medication or anything else) can affect how we breathe during those disturbances that night, and that can show up in our numbers. In that sense, the breathing info from our home machines might be used to infer something about how well we slept in general.

In other words, sometimes bad breathing causes bad sleep, but sometimes bad sleep causes bad breathing. That is why the best we can do is to use the trending information from our home machines over time to get the numbers as low as reasonably possible without attempting to read too much into the information, as if it were true lab-sleep-study-level information.

[JohnBFisher]

From a statistical / engineering point of view I will differ from robysue .. though we basically agree.

If you awaken feeling wonderful, then even if your AHI says your sleep stank out loud, it does not infer your sleep was bad. In fact, that combination rarely happens. But it sometimes does happen.

But if you awaken feeling horrible, but your AHI numbers say your slept well, it does not infer you slept well. This happens much more frequently. It typically indicates something else (not apnea) is disturbing your sleep.

So, the numbers ALONE can not infer how you slept. But how you feel AND the numbers is a good way to gauge your sleep.

Hope that makes sense.

[old dude]

From a statistical / engineering point of view I will differ from robysue .. though we basically agree.

If you awaken feeling wonderful, then even if your AHI says your sleep stank out loud, it does not infer your sleep was bad. In fact, that combination rarely happens. But it sometimes does happen.

But if you awaken feeling horrible, but your AHI numbers say your slept well, it does not infer you slept well. This happens much more frequently. It typically indicates something else (not apnea) is disturbing your sleep.

So, the numbers ALONE can not infer how you slept. But how you feel AND the numbers is a good way to gauge your sleep.

Hope that makes sense.

Indeed, and it's pretty much what I thought. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I might have been missing.

[MagsterMile]

The strangest thing happened to me several nights ago. I'm not aware of anything happening during the time period. For roughly 15 min (1:45 approx. to 2:00 approx.) my SH shows that there was no data being collected. I believe that I slept through the whole thing. The 'leak graph' shows 95% = 16.80 and the max = 111.05. Two events during that time frame: #1 1:35:11 (40) and #2 2:01:31 (49). I felt fine next day. I can not explain what happened.

[JohnBFisher]

... For roughly 15 min (1:45 approx. to 2:00 approx.) my SH shows that there was no data being collected. ...

Alien abduction?

It's far more likely that SleepyHead had some minor problem with the data from that 10-15 minute period and was unable to process it. While SH does a good job with most data (an amazingly good job), it sometimes glitches. I doubt seriously that you have to worry.

[CapnLoki]

If you awaken feeling wonderful, then even if your AHI says your sleep stank out loud, it does not infer your sleep was bad. In fact, that combination rarely happens. But it sometimes does happen.

I have a slightly different point of view. I've always been a "morning person" and I generally roll out of bed feeling fine at 5 to 6 am. However, in recent years I started feeling tired during the day and would take one or sometimes two serious naps, like 11am to 12:30, and then again at 3pm. When I started on the APAP this stopped immediately and I don't nap at all during the day.

Also, my O2 numbers have always been a tad low, so if my AHI number is bad, I will be spending a lot of time with very low O2, which is dangerous regardless of how I feel in the morning. I check every morning to make sure I don't have clusters of events, like 8-10 in a half hour, which could pull the O2 way down. Fortunately I've been able to tune my equipment and settings so that (for the moment at least) I only have a handful of H events scattered through the night.

So, the numbers ALONE can not infer how you slept. But how you feel AND the numbers is a good way to gauge your sleep.

I agree completely.

[robysue]

From a statistical / engineering point of view I will differ from robysue .. though we basically agree.

John, I couldn't find where we have any (even minor) disagreement. I have to say, however, that I think you state what we both think more clearly and more succinctly.

So, the numbers ALONE can not infer how you slept. But how you feel AND the numbers is a good way to gauge your sleep.

The OP's question had the premise that the numbers are GOOD. So if the numbers ARE good, then how you feel really is the way you gauge your sleep.

Obviously, if the numbers are NOT good, you need to look carefully at both the numbers and how you feel.

[MyIdaho]

Or alternatively if one's numbers are OK is how you feel the next day the best gauge?

Yes, if your numbers are ok, then how you feel the next day is the best gauge of how well you slept. If you are waking up feeling refreshed and rested and your AHI and leak numbers are fine, then you can assume it was a (very) good night's sleep. And if you don't feel so good (but your numbers are fine), then it was likely just a bad night's sleep: After all, even folks without any sleep disorders sometimes have bad nights and don't wake up feeling refreshed and rested.

It's important to not over think things. (And yes, I'm the pot calling the kettle black here: One of my biggest problems is over thinking things.)

Great answer Robysue! I agree totally. I've found it is better to not look at my machine everyday though... Too few hours of rest and somewhat elevated AHI for me are pretty reliable predictors for a bad day. I'd rather it be a surprise than go "crap, can I just go back to bed and forget work today?"

[billski]

The strangest thing happened to me several nights ago. I'm not aware of anything happening during the time period. For roughly 15 min (1:45 approx. to 2:00 approx.) my SH shows that there was no data being collected. I believe that I slept through the whole thing. The 'leak graph' shows 95% = 16.80 and the max = 111.05. Two events during that time frame: #1 1:35:11 (40) and #2 2:01:31 (49). I felt fine next day. I can not explain what happened.

Power failure?

[robysue]

The strangest thing happened to me several nights ago. I'm not aware of anything happening during the time period. For roughly 15 min (1:45 approx. to 2:00 approx.) my SH shows that there was no data being collected. I believe that I slept through the whole thing. The 'leak graph' shows 95% = 16.80 and the max = 111.05. Two events during that time frame: #1 1:35:11 (40) and #2 2:01:31 (49). I felt fine next day. I can not explain what happened.

You're using an S9 and I don't really know whether this answer applies to the S9's or not.

When the PR System Ones lose track of the breathing, the machine will stay ON (unless Auto Off is enabled) and Sleepy Head will show a gap in the wave flow (since the machine can't detect it), but there will NOT be a gap in the pressure line or the leak line (since the machine is still ON.) This can happen when the leaks go into Large Leak territory.

Since your max leak is soo high, I'm wondering if you didn't have a massive leak during that time and the machine just lost track of you. What happens to the leak line just before, during, and just after that 15 minutes of missing data?

[caffeinatedcfo]

While I agree scientifically, I can tell when I'm in the deeper stages of sleep based on my pressure graph in Sleepyhead. I use my machine in APAP mode, 10-12cm. Almost like clock-work, my pressure starts to rise after the first few hours of sleep. This coincides with my sleep study data which demonstrated my pressure needs increased in deep sleep. It's just my theory though and really doesn't mean much. I've learned to just pay attention to how I slept and how I feel.

[JohnBFisher]

... While I agree scientifically, I can tell when I'm in the deeper stages of sleep based on my pressure graph in Sleepyhead. I use my machine in APAP mode, 10-12cm. Almost like clock-work, my pressure starts to rise after the first few hours of sleep. This coincides with my sleep study data which demonstrated my pressure needs increased in deep sleep. It's just my theory though and really doesn't mean much. I've learned to just pay attention to how I slept and how I feel.

Exactly. Likewise, I can tell when I hit REM sleep because my breathing suddenly settles down. My doctor surmises that during deep sleep there is not enough activity to fully engage the various control systems. But during REM sleep the amount of neural activity increases, which helps stabilize my breathing. But like you, I can not "prove" it. It's just likely that is the case.