"alpha intrusions"--whatchya got on 'em?

[49er]

Hi RobySue,

So I don't get this thread off topic, I am about to PM you because you make some good points.

But a possible helpful response for the OP is he/she might want to PM OKCsleepdoc if he/she doesn't respond to this thread. I found this physician very helpful. This is assuming of course, if he/she is wants more information that what is provided in the thread.

49er

Folks,

I'm surprised by the responses on this thread. Sparkles brought up alpha intrusions in a thread called Which machine?? when we were discussing the differences between the S8 and S9 machines and whether there was something in the S8 algorithms that might have caused her problems when she was using an S8. And since I have no personal experience with them nor any knowledge of them, I suggested to sparkles that she start a new thread about alpha intrusions here since I expected that someone who has had problems with them might be able to give her some useful information.

Instead of getting any kind of useful feedback, the first response appears snarky even if Julie did not mean for it to come across as snarky. And then the discussion quickly got sidetracked onto whether Julie's snarky response is snarky enough to be offensive.

49er finally provides a list of scholarly article hits. That may or may not be useful to sparkles.

So I'll re-ask sparkles's questions since I don't know answers to them:

1) In laymen's language, what the heck is an alpha-intrusion? And how disruptive are they to sleep patterns?

2) In laymen's language, what kinds of things are thought to cause alpha intrusions?

3) If a PAPer is experiencing alpha intrusions, does that likely indicate a different sleep disorder in addition to the OSA?

4) What if anything is usually suggested to treat alpha intrusions?

[jnk]

Personally I did not find Julie's response to be inappropriate, and certainly not an attack in any way on the OP. I read it to be a genuine acknowledgement of the limitations of this format and a recommendation for another format for researching that particular question, one with no agreed-upon answers anywhere, that I know of. Julie was winkingly playful yet informative, from the way I read it. But hey, that's just me. And I've been reading her helpful posts for years, so I may hear it with a different tone.

Any post can be misunderstood. And as far as that goes, being playfully snarky is a long-running inside joke on most public forums, seems to me.

Since this forum attracts newbies grasping at straws on a regular basis, my own personal preference is to try to keep my snarkishness down as much as possible. (No, really, seriously, I AM trying!) But I hope people can still be themselves and have fun here too.

Hey, just me.

[jnk]

Getting back to the original questions, and Robysue's skillful further breakdown of them, I think Doc Shives answers the questions well:

Many times people with chronic pain syndromes do not have sleep disorders that are easily diagnosed, but they do have sleep disruptions of unknown origin. They also tend to spend a lot of time in the light stage of sleep and have a characteristic, but non-specific, finding on their EEG (electroencephalogram, which measures the brain's electrical activity) during the sleep study. This finding is called "alpha intrusion." The cause of this particular brain wave pattern is not known, but it has been associated with different disorders that lead to chronic fatigue or chronic pain. There are no specific treatments that are aimed at alpha intrusions - we just try to treat the underlying pain syndrome and any primary sleep disorder that patients have.--"Why you can't sleep when you're in pain," Lisa Shives, M.D. -- http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/1 ... e-in-pain/

[Iowamv]

So I'll re-ask sparkles's questions since I don't know answers to them:

1) In laymen's language, what the heck is an alpha-intrusion?

Uh oh. Was my response totally off base?

[jnk]

. . . off base?

Nah. Yer golden.

Good answer.

Good book.

And Dr. Park is a nice helpful fellow. Not a sleep doc in the usual sense exactly, but very helpful to people with sleep troubles.

IMO.

[sparkles]

Thanks for the thoroughness of pointing out google's search feature in case I had just emerged from a cave. (BTW, that's intended to be irony, not snark. )

As surmised, I was indeed hoping to start with a brief primer or orientation to anecdotal and lived experience before trying to wade through technical stuff. It's a lot of info to take in. Plus there's that whole bubble filter thing many search engines use.

I'll look for the book, thanks for the rec.

I suspect I'd know it if I had fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, etc., so I don't. Don't consider that I have chronic/ongoing pain, unless I'm mistaking what I've been taking to be normal age-related stiffness. I sit too much and no doubt the apnea is creating some of the minor aches I wake up with.

[mollete]

Thanks for the thoroughness of pointing out google's search feature in case I had just emerged from a cave. (BTW, that's intended to be irony, not snark.

Actually, I believe that is sarcasm.

[mollete]

SARCASM!!!???

[sparkles]

Wondering if anyone here has read whether studies have tried to see if these alpha waves are predictors of those conditions named earlier. (fingers crossed that they are not precursors!)

[kaiasgram]

Wondering if anyone here has read whether studies have tried to see if these alpha waves are predictors of those conditions named earlier. (fingers crossed that they are not precursors!)

From what I have read, alpha intrusion or alpha-delta sleep is a predictor of fibromyalgia. BUT -- and this is important and can be a point of confusion if you're not a statistician or a researcher -- in research when they say "A" is a predictor of "B" they are not saying that "A" causes "B" or that "A" leads to "B." They are saying that "A" and "B" show a significant correlation. Where we see one, we tend to also see the other. So if you know that a person has condition "A" you can reasonably "predict" that they also have "B." Reasonably, not always. Some people have "A" but do not have and will never have "B."

So although there is a correlation we don't necessarily know if "A" causes "B" or if "B" causes "A" or maybe a third factor, "C" causes both "A" and "B."

I think the "A" "B" and "C" questions apply when it comes to alpha intrusion and fibromyalgia and other pain syndromes. There still seems to be a lot of debate about the direction of causality.

If you're curious, Jason at freecpapadvice.com has some EEG images showing normal delta sleep and what delta sleep looks like in fibromyalgia patients: http://www.freecpapadvice.com/Fibromyalgia_Sleep.html

[mollete]

All cynicism aside, your professional opinion on alpha intrusions might be more valuable than any google search.

How do you get cynicism?

Anyway, I do have a thought or two (as well as a couple of other people's thoughts).

While we are are waiting, however, and what ("IMHO") is germane to the discussion is, what, precisely, leads you to believe I am a professional, and what (precisely) is that profession?

[sparkles]

From what I have read, alpha intrusion or alpha-delta sleep is a predictor of fibromyalgia. BUT -- and this is important and can be a point of confusion if you're not a statistician or a researcher -- in research when they say "A" is a predictor of "B" they are not saying that "A" causes "B" or that "A" leads to "B." They are saying that "A" and "B" show a significant correlation. Where we see one, we tend to also see the other. So if you know that a person has condition "A" you can reasonably "predict" that they also have "B." Reasonably, not always. Some people have "A" but do not have and will never have "B."

So although there is a correlation we don't necessarily know if "A" causes "B" or if "B" causes "A" or maybe a third factor, "C" causes both "A" and "B."

I think the "A" "B" and "C" questions apply when it comes to alpha intrusion and fibromyalgia and other pain syndromes. There still seems to be a lot of debate about the direction of causality.

Very clear explanation--it's a very useful art to be able to translate science into everyday language.

Fingers crossed here that whatever the alphas are doing or connected to doesn't also manifest in any pain syndromes!

[jnk]

I would like to quote directly Dr. Park's words on the matter from another forum, since he has had alpha-delta issues himself:

by sypark » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:30 pm

I'm a doctor, and I have alpha intrusion. When my sleep doctor saw this the first thing he asked was if I had any chronic pain issues. I said no. While I didn't have OSA, the alpha intrusion (or alpha-delta sleep) does explain my feeling tired or drowsy sometimes. Alpha intrusion is when the faster alpha brain waves of light sleep intrude into the deep sleep (slower delta waves). There is no consensus in the sleep medicine field of the significance, but it's been shown to exist (not all) in some patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia. What is means practically is that you don't get deep efficient continuous chunks of deep sleep, due to the intrusions. Now the sleep docs are looking into CAP or cyclic alternating pattern, which again is associated with all the same conditions listed above. Just another fancy mathematical way of showing that something is interrupting your deep sleep. Sometimes, in theory, these "intrusions" can occur even without any obvious brain wave changes.

by sypark » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:54 pm

Most sleep medicine docs will call this idiopathic hypersomnia, meaning there's no clear obvious reason for your fatigue. Theories range from neurologic to metabolic to nutritional to hormonal reasons. My explanation is more anatomic. Having examined hundreds of people with chronic fatigue syndrome, IBS, fibromyalgia, almost invariably, their upper airways are very narrow. Specifically, they'll have small jaws and the space behind the tongue is very narrow, especially when flat on their backs. Since you have muscle relaxation when in deep sleep, people with this anatomy will either wake up to light sleep, or compensate by turning over to sleep on their sides or stomachs. Typically, they won't snore (until later when they gain weight and develop into true sleep apnea). They never get deep sleep, and never wake up refreshed. Some of these people will respond to CPAP or dental devices, but due to their hypersensitive nervous systems, theses devices will usually wake them up more than they help. Exercise, relaxation, meditation, breathing, yoga, all help to various degrees due to the relaxation properties of all these activities. My feeling is, either address the anatomy (not practical for most people), or lessen the stress promoting effects.

http://www.apneasupport.org/alpha-intru ... 77-15.html

[jnk]

. . . what, precisely, leads you to believe I am a professional, and what (precisely) is that profession?

Personally, I think you often act very professional.

You work at a bakery, right?

[StuUnderPressure]

. . . what, precisely, leads you to believe I am a professional, and what (precisely) is that profession?

Personally, I think you often act very professional.

You work at a bakery, right?

I think he is the one that punches the holes in the doughnuts.