OT: Tragic Shooting.

[jabman]

I was only thinking of the kids and families when I posted this thread. It would of been nice to see the "Guns are bad/ Guns are good" argument in another thread but it is as it as. In keeping with my OP I will not state whether i agree with a gun ban/control or not here. Instead I will ask that everyone please keep those affected by this tragedy in their thoughts and prayers.

[deltadave]

I was only thinking of the kids and families when I posted this thread. It would of been nice to see the "Guns are bad/ Guns are good" argument in another thread but it is as it as.

I completely agree. However, as Robbie said, everyone has free agency and can use it as they see fit.

My free agency says gun control and football don't belong here, and I guess God intervened in the football thing.

And unfortunately, moving a little into the political arena, WBC has threatened to come to the funerals. Those interested can sign the White House Petition recognizing them as a hate group:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... p/DYf3pH2d

[Slinky]

Yer right, DeltaDave, I told ya the Pats needed our coaching. *sigh*

Thank you very much for posting that link for the WBC petition. If ever a group ....

[PST]

When my American born wife moved with me to Israel in 1969 (till 1980), she took courses in managing M3 rifle and practiced shooting. As a matter of fact she and other American born women excelled in targeting. Later she, armed with a rifle, volunteered escorting our children classes on trips. Also, we took turns to guard the two gates in our children's schools fences. This was in addition to the special security force assigned to the schools which constantly patrolled the schools properties. If it can be done in prisons, here in the U. S., then why not in schools?

Is this something that was normal at the time in Israel as a whole, or were you living in one of the settlements on the West Bank? I have friends who visit often and/or have relatives living in Israel, but the picture of parents forming a daily armed patrol outside the gates of the schools doesn't correspond to anything I've ever heard about normal life there.

Reply,

It was "normal" after the 1974 Maalot School massacre. Apparently you are (were) not informed about it. Your above posted views about things in Israel show your sheer ignorance on what's going on there, now and in the past. Google: The Maalot school massacre, and also check this:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showth ... l-massacre

Always glad to be corrected; that's how we learn. I have a question that I think is relevant to whether the Israeli response to organized terror attacks on schools in the 70s would be a good model, as you suggest, for protecting our schools in the U.S. from the armed and mentally ill today. Was the process you described sustained and national rather than temporary and regional? Ten years later, were moms across Israel still taking target practice so they could escort their children on field trips, and were dads still taking turns patrolling the gates to the schools? Because it wouldn't do much good if this turned out to be something that parents in Connecticut were willing to do for three months and then lose interest, while never even catching on farther from the scene. Frankly, I don't think willingness here to follow such a plan would get remotely as much popular support as armed defense in Israel after the Ma'alot attack. After all, that was a period of armed terrorism organized across the border in the camps in the south of Lebanon. In a nation of 300 million people, will the fact that every two years or so a young man with access to weapons goes crazy sustain the same level of vigilance? If armed parents aren't routinely still defending the schools in Israel, I doubt the plan has much of a future here.

For what it's worth, I have no trouble believing that American born women can learn to handle guns and excel in sharpshooting. After all, what was Nancy Lanza but a Connecticut housewife and mother who accumulated guns and learned to use them because she thought she needed them for defense? The potential for unexpected consequences from that kind of self-defense is chillingly clear now. Does a response against a determined and ruthless foe attacking from without provide us with a useful model of how we should react to the possibility that one of our children might go insane?

[Slinky]

This hardly fits the image reported in American media. From the Belfast (Ireland)Telegraph: 17 Dec 12

"The mother of Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza who slaughtered 20 US schoolchildren and seven adults was a gun-hoarding survivalist who was stockpiling weapons in preparation for an economic collapse, it has emerged.

Her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters at her Illinois home that her gun-obsessed relative was part of the ‘prepper’ movement that fears an economic collapse will lead to a breakdown in society.

“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.

“Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping ­ are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

Nancy Lanza (52) had five registered firearms, had begun stockpiling food and taught Adam how to shoot. He is believed to have used three of her guns ­ a Bushmaster .223-calibre, and two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9mm ­ in the school massacre after he shot her dead in bed.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... z2FK7P5ZAm

[lazer]

Nuclear arms don't bomb people, people bomb people. So we better not put any legal restrictions on owning nuclear arms.

Amen. It's always the NRA rednecks that give that line as an excuse for every massacre. Like it's on a bracelet you get with membership.

Yadda yadda yadda. Been there, heard that before.... Columbine, Gabrielle Giffords, the Batman movie massacre. Blah Blah Blow it out your a***.

Fortunately, like the past election proved, the base of those people is shrinking. The angry white man demanding ownership of a machine gun at all cost is fast becoming a minority.

Even George Will said this AM that the most recent court cases would still allow for severe cuts to access to certain weapons without violating any constitutional rights. Like outlawing assault weapons or large magazines. No where in the constitution does it allow access to military weapons -- other than muskets. Survivalist nutbags dont like to hear that but the courts themselves have said it.

When you lose George WIll, you've lost the argument. The NRA folks can keep repeating the mantra but it means nothing. Especially now, after what just happened.

I never considered myself a "Redneck".. Guess you learn something everyday... So let's see. The fact that I'm a member of the NRA and I'm white, makes me some whack-job myself all in itself

[NachtWürger]

In a nation of 300 million people, will the fact that every two years or so a young man with access to weapons goes crazy sustain the same level of vigilance?

I am glad you said that and I wonder if you realize that is the key question for any proposal that comes forward?

Another way of saying it is, "Do the benefits of the proposal exceed the costs?"

Of course most of us would not like to see even one child every hundred years die tragically from any cause. But we know preventing all tragic deaths of children is not practical if even possible. So we continue to transport our children in cars on highways, allow them to bathe in bathtubs, swim in swimming pools and ride bicycles.

What are the benefits of living in a free society? What are the costs of any proposal that makes it less free?

What are the benefits of such proposals? Will they actually prevent any deaths?

What was the cost of the TSA confiscating my shampoo? What is the total cost to society of the TSA? Has the TSA prevented one terrorist attack in its 10+ years of existence?

2 months and 8 days after the 911 attack, the Aviation and Transportation Security Act was signed into law by President Bush.

I fear by March 2013 we may have passed more bad legislation.

[TheUglyTruth]

I never considered myself a "Redneck".. Guess you learn something everyday...

Congratulations. Enjoy.

[RandyJ]

Another way of saying it is, "Do the benefits of the proposal exceed the costs?"

Of course most of us would not like to see even one child every hundred years die tragically from any cause. But we know preventing all tragic deaths of children is not practical if even possible. So we continue to transport our children in cars on highways, allow them to bathe in bathtubs, swim in swimming pools and ride bicycles.

What are the benefits of living in a free society? What are the costs of any proposal that makes it less free?

What are the benefits of such proposals? Will they actually prevent any deaths?

I suspect that if some sort of ban on semiautomatic weapons is reinstated you would see fewer deaths. If you can kill a large number of people in a few minutes with a semiautomatic weapon (due to the high number of bullets you can discharge in that time and not necessarily need good aim as you spray a group of people) vs being restricted to a weapon that you have to reload after discharging a few bullets... in a mass shooting situation you are killing fewer people per minute and the necessity to stop periodically might give others the opportunity to disarm you... without actually doing the math it certainly seems like the body count would be lower.

If we can't do more to assure the safety of our children when they are in the care of the State at school, I wouldn't want to have to be the one to face the Newtown CT parents and tell them that their child's life didn't matter enough.

[avi123]

I was only thinking of the kids and families when I posted this thread. It would of been nice to see the "Guns are bad/ Guns are good" argument in another thread but it is as it as. In keeping with my OP I will not state whether i agree with a gun ban/control or not here. Instead I will ask that everyone please keep those affected by this tragedy in their thoughts and prayers.

Reply,

As far as I know this forum is not a political nor a religious one. It's about CPAP and Sleep. But you took upon yourself to inject religious aspects into the school tragedy. What about those who are atheists but post here? Should they shut up?

[LSAT]

I was only thinking of the kids and families when I posted this thread. It would of been nice to see the "Guns are bad/ Guns are good" argument in another thread but it is as it as. In keeping with my OP I will not state whether i agree with a gun ban/control or not here. Instead I will ask that everyone please keep those affected by this tragedy in their thoughts and prayers.

Reply,

As far as I know this forum is not a political nor a religious one. It's about CPAP and Sleep. But you took upon yourself to inject religious aspects into the school tragedy. What about those who are atheists but post here? Should they shut up?

Yes Avi...SHUT UP!

[lazer]

I was only thinking of the kids and families when I posted this thread. It would of been nice to see the "Guns are bad/ Guns are good" argument in another thread but it is as it as. In keeping with my OP I will not state whether i agree with a gun ban/control or not here. Instead I will ask that everyone please keep those affected by this tragedy in their thoughts and prayers.

Reply,

As far as I know this forum is not a political nor a religious one. It's about CPAP and Sleep. But you took upon yourself to inject religious aspects into the school tragedy. What about those who are atheists but post here? Should they shut up?

Yes Avi...SHUT UP!

+1

[TheUglyTruth]

What about those who are atheists but post here? Should they shut up?

You live in the Bible Belt. For God's (or whomever's) sake learn how to respond appropriately for requests to prayers.

Here are some tips - http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistfami ... iracle.htm

I am sure you can find other tips.

Learn to be a good atheist. It takes work, knowledge, skill.

[nanwilson]

I am in tears after reading this total thread. I read the original post the other day and posted my offer of prayers..........but I am so sad to see (read) the posts that have come after the original ones......people snipping (intended word) at each other and berating each other all because of a difference of opinion. This post (by Jabman) was intended to help the families and each other by offering our heart felt prayers and condolences. Yes, we feel outrage by what has happened, and definately a big YES because of the lost children........but I think you all need to think of why this thread was started..........and it was definately not started to get your political opinions nor your barbs at each other. Grow up kids...and take a look into your hearts and offer a prayer......if you don`t pray then I`m sure you can offer a condolence to these grieving families and those that knew these children. The children will never grow up to experience another Christmas or birthday, will never graduate from high school or university and will never get married and have children of their own.
Nan

[RandyJ]

This post (by Jabman) was intended to help the families and each other by offering our heart felt prayers and condolences. Yes, we feel outrage by what has happened, and definately a big YES because of the lost children........but I think you all need to think of why this thread was started..........and it was definately not started to get your political opinions nor your barbs at each other. Grow up kids...and take a look into your hearts and offer a prayer......
Nan

Whether OT or not, I've learned on this forum that the thread starter has no control where the thread will go... that is both the beauty and bane of it... Jabman clearly marked the thread "OT" which allows those not interested to walk on by.

I'm ok with political or religious expression in an OT thread, as long as the tone remains civil. In this thread civility unfortunately was lacking at times.