Doctors Lying

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
markk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by markk » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:29 am

idamtnboy wrote:
ChicagoGranny wrote:HCA, the largest for-profit hospital chain in the country, is confronting evidence of unnecessary cardiac treatments at some of its medical centers in Florida after a nurse’s complaint prompted an internal investigation.
An unregulated, unfettered, free market will bring Americans the best health care possible, right? Gov't involvement guarantees waste and inefficiency, right? Give me a break!
I'm sorry you fail to grasp the reality here.

This is a fault of INSURANCE being used to pay for endless treatment for which the patient has no interest in the cost. Thus, insurance is abused by the provider and the patient, as well.

This is actually CAUSED by interference from governments. If tax laws didn't coax everyone into employer paid benefits, rather than being interested in managing the use and costs themselves, patients would be quite mindful of what was going on and would be questioning and far more engaged in the process.

You say "free markets" don't work. The problem is, what you're seeing is a LACK of a free market, and the results of that. Further, more government intervention will worsen the problem, not improve it.
5 of every 4 people have math deficiencies.

markk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by markk » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:42 am

AHI15 wrote:
I don't think so. A large part of our problem is the disconnect between the decision making and the payment making. Ie., if I am paying out of pocket I will have a great incentive to check carefully that I need the procedure. So I will be motivated to get educated about my health decisions, and make them more carefully.

But if I don't have to pay, and the PRICE is not a factor in my decision to have the procedure--as it is not involved now since this corrupt mess of a non-market system doesn't let me negotiate the price beforehand--then the incentives are skewed toward relying on experts and just going along with what Drs. order.
The use of insurance as the first dollar payer is the single largest cause of medical services price inflation, and runaway costs. The provider merely has to treat you. The financial transaction is of no interest to you, since you're not paying, and so, there are only two parties... the insurance and the provider, and this gives the provider every financial incentive to inflate the treatments, the cost, etc. The reason the store doesn't charge 27 dollars per gallon of milk, is that you won't pay it. But if you had insurance to provide you milk to drink, it wouldn't matter what the store charged. You'd have your milk.

Thus, the effort to tie medical funding to someone other than the patient is the very cause of all the bad things about our medical system. Obamacare, incidently, seeks to make this disconnect between paying the bill and the customer as complete as possible, thus exacerbating all the bad things even more. And then it imposes a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in boards, commissions, and agencies, whose job it is to decide what you can't have, in order to bring the overall price tag back down.
5 of every 4 people have math deficiencies.

User avatar
zoocrewphoto
Posts: 3732
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:34 pm
Location: Seatac, WA

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by zoocrewphoto » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:47 am

markk wrote: The use of insurance as the first dollar payer is the single largest cause of medical services price inflation, and runaway costs. The provider merely has to treat you. The financial transaction is of no interest to you, since you're not paying, and so, there are only two parties... the insurance and the provider, and this gives the provider every financial incentive to inflate the treatments, the cost, etc. The reason the store doesn't charge 27 dollars per gallon of milk, is that you won't pay it. But if you had insurance to provide you milk to drink, it wouldn't matter what the store charged. You'd have your milk.

Thus, the effort to tie medical funding to someone other than the patient is the very cause of all the bad things about our medical system. Obamacare, incidently, seeks to make this disconnect between paying the bill and the customer as complete as possible, thus exacerbating all the bad things even more. And then it imposes a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in boards, commissions, and agencies, whose job it is to decide what you can't have, in order to bring the overall price tag back down.
I think my insurance has a good way of doing it. Years ago, we had no deductible and just paid a low copay for each thing. Obviously, we did not like it when it changed to include a deductible and make us pay more. But at the same time, I can tell I am more thoughtful about going to the doctor. Not that I liked going. I prefer to avoid doctors. But I know I was thinking about the money.

My current insurance plan has a a weekly premium of $9 which works out to $468. I know, not bad at all. My deductible is $50o, and I also get $500 into my HRA account. So, in effect, the deductible doesn't exist if I never go over $500 for the year. And for a few years, I barely touched that account. It rolled over, and I had about $1400 in it. That was our money, so we were encouraged to not spend it.

Once we exhaust the HRA account, then the deductible starts. So, if we have $500 in the account to start with, we have to spend our share of the money that is held, then we have to spend our own money, and then the insurance kicks in with 85% coverage. So, we still have good insurance, and if we are pretty healthy, we may spend nothing all year. If we have problems, it does help us.

Last year, I had the $1400 in my account, and I ended yp in the ER twice in one week. I had severe vertigo. I also took an ambulance ride. I had no idea how expensive that would be. But walking wasn't working for me. The second time wasn't as bad, so i staggered in, and they put me in a wheelchair.

I used up the whole HRA account, then got the deductible, and still have some bills to pay off. I was also having high blood pressure problems with lots of visits to check the blood pressure and adjust medications as it was not improving.

This year, I got a new $500, in my account, and that was used up with more followup appointments. The deductible started before the sleep study and was finished off with the sleep study. I am actually glad that I did not know the cost of the sleep study as I might have cancelled it, and I really did need it, as well as the great start that the sleep tech gave me. But it was $6,000, and my share was $883. I haven't even started on that bill yet. I still have more follows up with the regular doctor as I my blood pressure is better, but not consistent since my sleep is not consistent yet. AND I have been having coughing problems (3 weeks and 4 weeks plus) plus two rounds of rash. So, that means extra appointments.

My xpap equipment is paid for 85% by the insurance so I think the first round of equipment is going to end up about $300-400. Not too bad, and it is working for me, so I know it is well worth it. I am past compliance, and it is a sale, so it is MINE.

Dental is 85% at most places and 100% covered at a few places. Basically the insurance still pays 85%, but those places have a deal to consider it 100 % covered. I went there last year when my second wisdom tooth broke. A piece of it completely broke off, but was still attached to the gums. I was really impressed with the dentist. It took longer to numb the area than it did to remove the whole tooth. I thought she was just going to remove the broken piece. But the whole thing was out in less than 5 minutes and never hurt afterward. I still need to go back and get the other 3 wisdom teeth out. I am a chicken with dentists, and I went back for a regular appointment and cleaning, but they wanted to do a more detailed cleaning since I had gone many years without dental work. They were also very concerned about my high blood pressure which was untreated at that time. I was normally in the 160s above 100-106. At the dentist, I was even worse. I didn't go back for more after that. But I know I need to do it, and I liked their plan. And my blood pressure is much better now.

During the exam, they noted the various things that needed to be done. I have some small cavities that need to be filled. They took photos and showed me on the screen, so I could see that everything they mentioned truly existed. And they worked out groupings of what could be done at an appointment. They recommended a deep cleaning, then an appointment to fix the small caveties. And then wait until December for another appointment. That way, if I had an emergency before then, I would still be under my annual limit. If I hadn't used it by then, I could use before it expired. And then do the rest the following year. They could get it all done in less than 6 months at no charge to me. So, I need to get brave and set u p that deep cleaning appointment, so that i can get as much as I can done with this year's available amount, and then get the rest done next year. My original broken wisdom tooth broke probably 8 years ago or so, and it starting to bother me a little. I am really good at avoiding the dentist, so I can tolerate a lot, such as not chewing some things on that side. For awhile, I had a hole in that tooth that I had to pick food out of it. But eventually, my gums filled in the hole. It didn't hurt unless I got stuff stuck in there, so it stopped hurting when the gums filled it in. It is sensitive with pressure now. Not bad, but a reminder that it needs to be removed.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: Resmed S9 autoset pressure range 11-17
Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

User avatar
Boyce
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:22 am
Location: Atlanta

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by Boyce » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:53 am

markk wrote:
idamtnboy wrote:
ChicagoGranny wrote:HCA, the largest for-profit hospital chain in the country, is confronting evidence of unnecessary cardiac treatments at some of its medical centers in Florida after a nurse’s complaint prompted an internal investigation.
An unregulated, unfettered, free market will bring Americans the best health care possible, right? Gov't involvement guarantees waste and inefficiency, right? Give me a break!
I'm sorry you fail to grasp the reality here.

This is a fault of INSURANCE being used to pay for endless treatment for which the patient has no interest in the cost. Thus, insurance is abused by the provider and the patient, as well.

This is actually CAUSED by interference from governments. If tax laws didn't coax everyone into employer paid benefits, rather than being interested in managing the use and costs themselves, patients would be quite mindful of what was going on and would be questioning and far more engaged in the process.

You say "free markets" don't work. The problem is, what you're seeing is a LACK of a free market, and the results of that. Further, more government intervention will worsen the problem, not improve it.
markk wrote:
AHI15 wrote:
I don't think so. A large part of our problem is the disconnect between the decision making and the payment making. Ie., if I am paying out of pocket I will have a great incentive to check carefully that I need the procedure. So I will be motivated to get educated about my health decisions, and make them more carefully.

But if I don't have to pay, and the PRICE is not a factor in my decision to have the procedure--as it is not involved now since this corrupt mess of a non-market system doesn't let me negotiate the price beforehand--then the incentives are skewed toward relying on experts and just going along with what Drs. order.
The use of insurance as the first dollar payer is the single largest cause of medical services price inflation, and runaway costs. The provider merely has to treat you. The financial transaction is of no interest to you, since you're not paying, and so, there are only two parties... the insurance and the provider, and this gives the provider every financial incentive to inflate the treatments, the cost, etc. The reason the store doesn't charge 27 dollars per gallon of milk, is that you won't pay it. But if you had insurance to provide you milk to drink, it wouldn't matter what the store charged. You'd have your milk.

Thus, the effort to tie medical funding to someone other than the patient is the very cause of all the bad things about our medical system. Obamacare, incidently, seeks to make this disconnect between paying the bill and the customer as complete as possible, thus exacerbating all the bad things even more. And then it imposes a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in boards, commissions, and agencies, whose job it is to decide what you can't have, in order to bring the overall price tag back down.
Since I joined here I noticed there are only a few members who demonstrate even a basic understanding of economics, i.e., how the world really works.

Many members posting comments on economics are working merely off of "how things should be" or "how things would be in a utopia" or "how things will be if the right laws are passed". They entirely overlook the realities of human behavior and scarce resources and even do little reflection on their own behavior in obtaining and supplying scarce resources.

markk, I caution you about getting in long debates but an occasional wise word or two like you just posted is sorely needed in this forum.

Thank you (and a few others) so much.
Boyce

User avatar
pats
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:52 pm

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by pats » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:45 am

zoocrewphoto wrote:I think my insurance has a good way of doing it. Years ago, we had no deductible and just paid a low copay for each thing. Obviously, we did not like it when it changed to include a deductible and make us pay more. But at the same time, I can tell I am more thoughtful about going to the doctor. Not that I liked going. I prefer to avoid doctors. But I know I was thinking about the money.
My view is that is a bug, not a feature. There does need to be some system to throttle back people who would go to the doctor just for fun, but when it is based on money it does not distinguish necessary from unnecessary care. I'm sure there are people out there with undiagnosed, untreated OSA because a copay and/or a deductible deterred them from seeing a doctor about something as minor as snoring or as vague as a little daytime sleepiness.

_________________
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Software: SleepyHead.

User avatar
MaxDarkside
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:21 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by MaxDarkside » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:00 am

AHI15 wrote:Why the heck to Drs. prescribe too many?
Because they are human. I don't think you can put them all into one bucket either. Some will have a drug seeker come in the ER and the Dr. will just give them a prescription because the Dr. is busy and it will kick the can down the road for now, stop the whining/screaming/yelling about "Level 12" pain on a scale of 1-10. Others will just tell them "NO" and tell them to get treatment, to which they can get extreme "possessed by the devil" responses. Sometimes the HUC / triage nurse will see in the records this person is a seeker, sometimes they don't. The amount of ER drug seekers is much much higher than what it should be. It's a major medical problem.

Once addicted, you really cannot blame the person. It's almost like they are possessed. We need a better system to ID these people and send them into a program to detox them and help them not restart. The programs exist, but I don't think it's properly integrated with the opiate seeker contact points (Pharmacy, ER, Dr.'s office, etc.). It's a powerful addiction, compounded by many becoming alcoholics from the opiates. VERY difficult to break and stay sober/clean. I think 85% "relapse".

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: S9™ Series H5i™ Heated Humidifier with Climate Control
Additional Comments: CMS-50E Oximeter, Zeo Bedside, Software: Comm'l grade AI analytics server & tools & SleepyHead
Do or Die... Sleep Apnea killed me, but I came back. Click for my story
Please visit my My Apnea Analytics blog. Maybe we can help each other.
54 yrs, 6' 1", 160->172 lbs

markk
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by markk » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:46 pm

Boyce wrote:Many members posting comments on economics are working merely off of "how things should be" or "how things would be in a utopia" or "how things will be if the right laws are passed". They entirely overlook the realities of human behavior and scarce resources and even do little reflection on their own behavior in obtaining and supplying scarce resources.

markk, I caution you about getting in long debates but an occasional wise word or two like you just posted is sorely needed in this forum.

Thank you (and a few others) so much.
Hey, if you just explain that "economics" is just looking at how people use money, it always clears up a bit. You're right, we humans get caught VERY easily in the trap that if we just push a little, we can change fundamental human behavior. It hasn't ever worked. You can criticize it till the end of eternity, and it won't change.

I once sat through a presentation where we were all asked "How many of you think you are above your ideal weight?" About 85 percent of the room's hands went up.

"How many of you know that's not good for you?" Pretty much exactly the same result.

"So, if you already know you're overweight, and you know it's not good for you, are not doing it because you don't know, or becuase you're not yet motivated to make the changes necessary?"

We all squirmed. And agreed. Knowledge, in and of itself, is negligible in terms of changing behavior. And trying to force others to do what you don't don't do voluntarily invites resistance and rebellion.

That's why efforts to change society, or plans to operate a society, based on making people change, or based on the idea that once informed, people will change, never actually work.

And economics is no different than that.
5 of every 4 people have math deficiencies.

User avatar
ChicagoGranny
Posts: 15125
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:43 pm
Location: USA

Re: Doctors Lying

Post by ChicagoGranny » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:37 am

markk wrote:

I once sat through a presentation where we were all asked "How many of you think you are above your ideal weight?" About 85 percent of the room's hands went up.

"How many of you know that's not good for you?" Pretty much exactly the same result.

"So, if you already know you're overweight, and you know it's not good for you, are not doing it because you don't know, or becuase you're not yet motivated to make the changes necessary?"

We all squirmed. And agreed. Knowledge, in and of itself, is negligible in terms of changing behavior. And trying to force others to do what you don't don't do voluntarily invites resistance and rebellion.

That's why efforts to change society, or plans to operate a society, based on making people change, or based on the idea that once informed, people will change, never actually work.
"What I don't understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise."

- Paul in his Epistle to the Romans, 7:15, translation The Message

This problem we have is as old as mankind. Aristotle preached, "the man who knows the right will do the right". All of us prove Aristotle wrong every day.
"It's not the number of breaths we take, it's the number of moments that take our breath away."

Cuando cuentes cuentos, cuenta cuántas cuentos cuentas.