ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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summer
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ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:11 am

Hello, I hope you can help;

Problem

My problem is two fold;

1. Fragmented sleep, due to many arousals, I do not feel mentally refreshed even though I have a very low AHI.
2. Morning spaciness, slightly fatigued, felt like I have been over breathing during the night and on some mornings my chest feels its been for a work out! (Blood gases messed up C02 too High or C02 too low!)

My history

I was scripted for a Resmed S9 Autoset, my initial settings were 6.6 to 11.4, I later tweaked this to min 9.6 to 11.4 and although my AHI reduced to on average of 4.5 I never felt rested. 99% of the AHI were centrals and hypopneas, all of events clustered so I could get 20 of them in space of hour, so I felt crappy and headachy the next day.
My clinic (UK) is just not interested any more and want nothing to do with me due in part to the average AHI being under 5.
After 5 months I decided to buy a Resmed VPAP Adapt initially using the quattro FX, with the initial settings of EPAP 6.6, min PS 3.0 max PS 8. My AHI fell to between 0.0 and 0.4, which is great however my sleep was still fragmented.
My first remit for the first couple of months of using the Adapt was to nail any leaks with the fx with a view to change masks after a month to the Innomed Hybrid and then nail leaks with that mask and then to tweak the setting further on the Adapt.
Further, I also bought a night vision camera and now know about my nocturnal sleeping, and there seems to be element of PLMD and hypnic jerks, itching going on and also I have a cmsd50+ spo2 meter and use Sleepy head software.

At the moment I am caught between a rock and a hard place, the reason simply is that I am using a Resmed S9 VPAP Adapt for which I was not scripted for and am I trying to titrate myself!!

Current therapy

I have now been using the S9 VPAP Adapt for 3 months, both the FX and hybrid leaks ranged between 3 to 12 l/s, and I am currently using the FX due to rashes caused by the hybrid.

Initially I thought PLMD and hypnic jerks/itching was the major culprite and although they may have some bearing, I think may be the setup of the machine may be causing some of these issues and arousals that affect the FLOW and cause instability. So over the course of past couple of weeks I have tweaked my setting and arrived at the following:

EPAP 6.2, min PS 3.4 and max PS 8.4, AHI ranges from 0.0 to 0.5.
95% IPAP around 13
Max IPAP around 14.5

Observations

Machine: The Adapt cannot differentiate between obstructive and central apneas, hypopneas, there is no recording of snore, flow limitations or patient/machine triggered breathing (PTB). So it is very much flying blind!!

Masks: The FX is a good mask, lite and small, however I have to use a chin strap and also use nasal dilators. So I searched for and found a mask with less hassle factor, namely the Innomed hybrid which I like, big problem I break out into a rash and I start itching!! (I use a mask liner, problem emanates from the nasal pillows, with adjustments made by fingers then touching other parts of face, contact dermatitis)

Arousals: I am a light sleeper, I have an average of 3 wakes a night that I am aware of and I surmise that I have multiple arousals that I not aware of as follows;

1. cpap based
a) Mask leaks, mask rashes and itching (allergy or contact dermatitis to silicone)
b) Machine type ASV more invasive, machine incorrect settings, pressure induced (either too low or too high)

2. Possible Respiratory arousals RERA's. Are these due to too low a pressure?

3. Suspected PLMD/hypnic jerks particularly in REM, these are worse if I have developed rashes and itching and if this
continues over several day my sleep deteriorates. A circular loop sets in were I get more and more itchy, ergo more tired!!.
It may be some of the PLMD's I am seeing are related to incorrect machine settings ie Too much pressure? or they may be entirely independent,
not sure!!

4. Facial twitching, eyes, raising eyebrows etc

5. Facial itches sometime body (linked with 1a)

6. Bed partner, every time she moves I move!!

7. Fibromyalgia/hypoglycemia

8. Normal change of position

It seems that there is a disturbance to my sleep every 5 to 15 minutes according to cross referencing with the camera and the Sleepy head flow rate.

Medications

I have been taking herbal tablets called Kalms sleep on and off over several weeks, these do help.

Treatment

I note that in general for the first 1.5 hours in particular that I will have some form of periodic or hyperventilation-hypoventilation breathing with either apneas or hypopneas, followed by many disturbance to the flow over the course of the night.


My wants

My personal view is that I think that that the machine is not correctly optimized and this translates into the following flow instability scenarios;

1. Hypo/hyperventilation which periodic breathing with fluctuation in Sp02. My blood gases seem messed up.
2. Apneas and Hyponpneas
3. Flow normal but reducing Sp02
4. Period were Sp02 drops to 90% to 92%, average Sp02 is 95.4%

I realise now that a poorly set up machine can cause the machine to work harder than it needs to and could therefore cause more arousals. Therefore I want a better optimised therapy/settings giving;

1. Reduced arousals
2. consistent 96% spo2
3. Less hypo and hyperventilation
4. No Sp02 lows of 92%
5. Improved flow stability
6. Refreshing sleep

How do I optimise my therapy to reduce arousals and hyper/hypoventilating? (Note that I realise that may be other conditions such as undiagnosed PLMD that may also affect my sleep!. Should I ;

1. EPAP Increase or reduce.
2. Increase Min PS
3. Increase Max PS
4. Change my settings to achieve 95% IPAP

Were should I start, perhaps the EPAP needs to be lower or needs to higher at 9.6?


Sleepyhead graphs

I would be very grateful for any one of you that has experience with ASV machines to have a look at the sleeyphead graphs and stats. So for example Minute Vent, Tidal volume do they look high etc, is there anything that looks out of place?

1. Last night using Quattro FX

Image

2. Example periodic breathing or hypo/hyperventilating over several minutes, is my EPAP too low, or should increase min PS
Image
Image

3. Example uniform flow with pressure line acting/looking like a CPAP machine. In fact if the Adapt acted more like a CPAP, may be my flow would be more stabilized?
Image
Image

4. Example of head twitching
Image

4. Example of PLMD (used Camera and watched led movement)
Image

5 Example of normal flow but with reducing Sp02
Image

Finally I do want to go back to the Hybrid full face (I VERY LOW LEAKS!!) and I have just bought some barrier cream for the face and below the nostrils.

Thank you again for your help.

Tom W
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by Tom W » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:02 am

I am NOT an ASV user but am headed in that general direction.

I do however suffer from clumps or groupings of apneas with my worst 60 minute average in SleepyHead hovering just around 50. So even though my AHI is bad (around 17) my worst 60 minute is what I feel is making me feel as bad as I do.

PLM(D/S) The D stands for Daytime and the S for Sleeping not a big deal but I assume you have PLMS. I do also have quite a few of these as well in addition to RLS.

I found out that I was anemic and although that has been corrected with iron supplements my current ferritin level is at 19. My understanding from the RLS forums is that we want this number at a minimum of 50. My RLS in much better since my anemia has been corrected.

About a year ago the wife and I purchased a king sized memory foam mattress and all I can say is that after 25 years in a standard queen mattress is that I don't even know she's in the bed most nights anymore.

I'm sure she knows I'm still there with all the moaning and gasping I still do but she never feels me roll over, bounce, etc..

Just curious - do you do a lot of dreaming?

I really can't help with your ASV settings but perhaps one of the ASV regulars will chime in soon.

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summer
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:54 pm

Hi Tom

Thanks for your reply, AHI of 17 is too high, have you posted your graphs on here yet? There are plenty of really helpful people on here. I note that you joined in September 2011 so I can see that therapy is proofing difficult. My feeling is that if they are all centrals then may be ASV is the way to go!!

Interesting about iron supplements I'm taking Solgar gentle iron tablets, one a day 20mg . Not much happening though, what brand and dose are you taking? So Yes I think I will get my iron levels tested and see if that is the problem, I may ask for B12 as well.

We have a king size bed, but I seem to be sensitive to her movements. Sunday nights can be disruptive she never sleeps, work next day! Although generally she sleeps like a log most nights and she is full of energy, and I do note that she hardly moves (except for Sunday nights) at all during the night and seem always refreshed, alright for some!!

I do dream a lot and that's when the Hypnic jerks and PLMS kicks in( if you pardon the pun).

I must admit that its very quiet on the forum at the moment particularly with reference to ASV users. When are the holidays taken in the States?

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by Pugsy » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:43 pm

summer wrote:I must admit that its very quiet on the forum at the moment particularly with reference to ASV users. When are the holidays taken in the States?
JohnBFisher has been ill and has had computer problems. Don't know where SWS is and haven't seen or heard from him lately.
Haven't seen any of the few others recently either. No special holiday here right now.
Giving you a bump to get you back up to the top of the list. Normally the ASV guys jump right in so unsure why no other responses so I assume they just haven't been by.

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by old64mb » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:25 pm

Summer,

I think part of the problem is that there's not a heck of a lot we can suggest for you at this point besides sitting down with a sleep doctor/neurologist based on the data and medical complaints you're giving us.

First, when taking a look at your older posts, there seemed to be a general consensus that there might be something going on with central apneas with you. However, the data were pretty unclear, and the only way you could confirm things one way or the other was to head back to the sleep clinic. It doesn't look like you were able to do that, so instead bought an ASV, self-titrated, and most importantly self-diagnosed.

The good news is the ASV seems to have brought your overall SDB problems down a good deal. The bad is that we don't really know why it's doing so. Since we don't know what we're targeting, it's really hard to tell you how to 'optimize' it further. Considering your CPAP was at a higher pressure to begin with, it's possible a higher EPAP would theoretically be worth trying - but you're basically not having any events at current settings, and hence it doesn't make sense to change what you have.

Second, you're really drilling into the data in small slices in very tiny intervals. It's possible you may be periodically hyperventilating and screwing up your CO2 which could theoretically lead to some of your problems, but when you give us reams of second by second detail rather than multiple weeks, it's hard to tell if you're just having a bad night, or if you're entering REM and hyperventilating for a minute during a dream, or such. On its own, a 30 second drop to 92% SpO2 is essentially a blip, especially when not correlated to any pressure or flow change. Your extremities are still getting plenty of oxygen.

The one thing I can suggest is that if you have video of what you think is PLMD, it's worth bringing to the attention of your sleep clinic and letting them test and make a diagnosis - because if you present a case with limb movements, the fact that your AHI is under 5 is irrelevant. It's a different sleep disorder, and needs to be dealt and diagnosed separately.

That could entirely explain why you're still tired, and is something that an xPAP isn't going to be able to treat. Treatment for that is pharmacological, and another sleep study might do you some good to figure out if it's worth treating, along with double checking your ASV settings. But the bottom line is that if you have PLMD, you've still got a bear out there, so better to hunt that rather than the 'mice' of what's left over with the ASV.

Sorry if that's not what you were hoping for, but based on what you've provided, it's the most helpful suggestion that's available. Cheers.

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summer
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:13 am

Hi Pugsy good I hear from you, I hope you are well. I hope JohnBFisher gets well soon, I did pm SWS and initially got a good response but after sending my graphs to him it all went cold. I guess he is very busy, oh well.

Thanks for the bump

64mb, thanks for your reply, I think I will have to go and pay privately for another sleep study.

I must admit I'm glad that I got the ASV, but I wish I knew what was doing!! My worry at the back of my mind is that the ASV is possibly causing the PLMD and Hypnic issues, is that possible? Its strange that I was at higher pressures withe APAP, I was also expecting to have to raise EPAP. I note from another poster Grand-pap that his CPAP pressure was 10, however after starting on ASV his EPAP was 6 min ps 4 and he got very good results!!

Agreed, being in IT I can over analysis at the minutia level! may be I should step back, would it help if I posted multiple weeks to show the trends?

Very saliently put "so better to hunt that rather than the 'mice' of what's left over with the ASV" I need another sleep study!!

It's good to talk, thank you old64mb.

Tom W
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by Tom W » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:29 am

summer wrote:Hi Tom

Thanks for your reply, AHI of 17 is too high, have you posted your graphs on here yet? There are plenty of really helpful people on here. I note that you joined in September 2011 so I can see that therapy is proofing difficult. My feeling is that if they are all centrals then may be ASV is the way to go!!

Interesting about iron supplements I'm taking Solgar gentle iron tablets, one a day 20mg . Not much happening though, what brand and dose are you taking? So Yes I think I will get my iron levels tested and see if that is the problem, I may ask for B12 as well.

We have a king size bed, but I seem to be sensitive to her movements. Sunday nights can be disruptive she never sleeps, work next day! Although generally she sleeps like a log most nights and she is full of energy, and I do note that she hardly moves (except for Sunday nights) at all during the night and seem always refreshed, alright for some!!

I do dream a lot and that's when the Hypnic jerks and PLMS kicks in( if you pardon the pun).

I must admit that its very quiet on the forum at the moment particularly with reference to ASV users. When are the holidays taken in the States?
The whole (or at least most of the) saga can been seen here.... viewtopic/t80654/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77 ... 53#p713553

The frustration (I guess) for my doctors is that my AHI doesn't really seem to be dependent on CPAP pressure so one visit they want to raise my pressure and then on the next visit they want to lower my pressure often to one they tried several months ago that didn't work.

My frustration is that they never get to the point where they admit they can't help me or that an AHI of 13 or 15 isn't "good enough".

My current doctor (plus my former doctor) tells me at the end of every visit that an ASV sleep study will be next and then the next visit he wants to change my pressure. Last week he told me he wanted to change it to what it was just the month before and I went off on him and asked him what has changed in 2 months and then he looked at my file and responded, "Oh, I see we've tried that pressure already".

My problem is that although I have a lot of centrals they're not a high enough percentage according to both of my last doctors to say it's complex sleep apnea and move on. Both of them seem(ed) more concerned about what my insurance company will cover than what will fix the problem.

At this point I'm very much leaning towards visiting a national sleep center and have them start from the beginning and see if there's something other than sleep apnea messing with my sleep but my confidence with sleep doctors isn't very high at the moment.

Personally, I feel that since my apneas are recorded as both central and obstructive while the flow pattern is very close that I'm really having centrals but my throat is closed enough for the cpap machines to record them as obstructives. This to me at least could explain why my CPAP pressure and AHI level isn't correlated.

Sorry for going OT.

old64mb
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by old64mb » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:18 pm

Tom W wrote:I do know I have/had RLS/PLMS, bruxism, impossible task night terrors and night time groaning (catathrenia?) so it is possible that my doctors and I have been going about this all wrong - Maybe my sleep is affecting my CPAP therapy more than my CPAP therapy is affecting my sleep?
Tom,

As John suggested in the other thread, addressing this is probably a lot more important than addressing residual centrals.

Something to keep in mind about scoring (and one thing I regret about Sleepyhead) is that any xPAP machine's interpretation of an event that doesn't involve a disruption of airflow is slightly shaky, since without a chest strap you can't see if there's actually respiratory effort.

That means you're going to have centrals scored as you change positions in bed and hold your breath. You're also likely going to have them scored as you fall asleep. (Both of those get removed from sleep study scoring by any competent lab since everyone has them.) Thus, a small number of centrals being reported from an xPAP - and I believe you said yours was under 2 - isn't something to be hugely concerned about, especially with the other problems you have.

Hence, it certainly makes sense to try another sleep center given your current (non-)relationship, but if you bring up that you've had these issues and point out they've not been addressed, you'll probably have greater success. An ASV may still help the obstructive component of your AHI - especially if you've got unresolved hypopneas - but it's probably worth trying to figure out how the other stuff interacts as well.

Cheers.
Last edited by old64mb on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by lazer » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:29 pm

Just giving this another *bump* as I'm still on the 2nd page of the forums playing catchup where I found this thread and it seems rather important!

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:59 am

lazer wrote:Just giving this another *bump* as I'm still on the 2nd page of the forums playing catchup where I found this thread and it seems rather important!

Very kind of you, its very much appreciated!

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by -SWS » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:52 am

Thanks for bumping, lazer. And summer, I'm sorry I've been out of touch.
summer wrote: Fragmented sleep, due to many arousals, I do not feel mentally refreshed even though I have a very low AHI.
Arousals might actually play an important role in your problem of non-restorative sleep. However, you mentioned an altogether separate condition that is a bona fide sleep disorer in itself. Here's your other prominent sleep disorder:
summer wrote: Fibromyalgia
See 729.1 in this PDF document for ICSD classification and description of fibromyalgia as a sleep disorder:

http://www.esst.org/adds/ICSD.pdf


Measurable sleep markers for fibromyalgia include alpha EEG intrusions of delta wave sleep as well as cyclic alternating pattern anomalies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212164

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fib ... sdt=0%2C14

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fib ... CFcQgQMwAA
summer wrote: Morning spaciness, slightly fatigued, felt like I have been over breathing during the night and on some mornings my chest feels its been for a work out! (Blood gases messed up C02 too High or C02 too low!)
All three of those happen to be fibromyalgia symptoms as well. Consider starting a separate and dedicated thread seeking anecdotes, advice, and comments pertaining to the sleep impact and management of fibromyalgia.
I note that in general for the first 1.5 hours in particular that I will have some form of periodic or hyperventilation-hypoventilation breathing with either apneas or hypopneas, followed by many disturbance to the flow over the course of the night.
I'll comment about your periodicity in a near-future post. I need to take a closer look at your data. The first couple detailed graphs I examined in your data showed what I think are "normal" post-obstruction oscillations in central control. If you look at the S9 AutoSet examples that Resmed included with ResScan, you'll see central-controller oscillations in OSA patients are somewhat normal and common following obstructive events. When that recovery periodicity becomes a more protracted and extreme pattern of flow volume waxing-and-waning, then central-controller loop-gain is disordered. That flow-patterned SDB condition is known as periodic breathing. Right now I don't see frank signs of periodic breathing in your data.

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summer
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:22 am

Hi -SWS,

Good to hear from you.

Very interesting about fibromyalgia I was diagnosed with this prior to sleep apnea. In the UK my doctor has no idea about fibromyalgia and thinks its a mental disorder, that is all in mind and gave rx pain management drugs, sad really! The fibromyalgia is intermittent, has always affected my biceps. However,it is much reduced and is dependant upon on how well I slept. I would now say I that the symptoms are mild now, interleaved with more severe episodes due to a very bad nights sleep. My feeling is that I not getting deep sleep and my muscles are not rejuvenating.

I have thought further and have distilled the main culprits to;

1. PLMD
2. Optimisation of machine settings and mask adjustment.
3.hyper/hypoventilation

I note that the camera showed this morning PLMD between 4.30 to 6.30, and I remember changing position from side to side. Hasten to add that I do not feel refreshed.

Also I have just got a TENS machine.

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by JohnBFisher » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:51 pm

Sorry I've been out of pocket for a while. I have another window open with this thread, but have not had the chance to respond.

However, let me summarize a couple things that I observed. You noted a great deal of fragmented sleep due to the invasiveness of ASV therapy. This is a great example of "more is not always better". Though the ASV therapy can address most events that anyone has, it also is very invasive when it ramps up the pressure. Often that can be worse than the problem it solves - unless you really need it due to central sleep apnea. As I remember it, you do not need that modality.

In that case - if you do not need the higher pressure because you do not have central sleep apnea - then you might want to consider making the ASV unit operate a little bit more like an BiLevel unit than an ASV unit. So, for example, if you EPAP min and max are 8 and 12 (as an example only), and your PS min is set to 4, then you would want to set your PS max to 4 as well. This will keep the unit from ramping up the pressure - except to act as a BiLevel unit. Of course, you might increase the PS max by 2 or 4 to allow some room to address some of the hypoventilation.

Also, you might want to set the Maximum Pressure to 18 or 20 - to keep from feeling that you are being blown up like a balloon during the night. This might help restrict how much it intervenes and thus distrubs your sleep.

However, I must emphasize that "more is not always better" seems to be the case here. But the good news is that you can readily adjust your pressure to get the most out of the therapy.

Hope that helps.

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summer
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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by summer » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:04 am

Hi John,

It's good that your feeling better, yes it is invasive, but when using the Autoset I had an average of 20 centrals a night and they were very often clustered so I did feel pretty crappy on a number of mornings. The ASV corrected all that, but bazaarly I am now not aware of it ramping any more, I really only feel it in the initial 5 minutes of going to bed and then I fall asleep

I really want the hypo/hypervents to go away but it's interesting that you mention about adjusting the PS max. That would be great if the Resmed Adapt would let me do that unfortunately the minimum setting are PS min to 3 and PS max to 8. May be I should have gone for the PR system one!! I think I just want to be sure that settings are correct and that they are not inducing hypo/hyperventilations?

Thanks again for informative reply.

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Re: ASV user needs help!!! still tired!!

Post by Mary Z » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:00 am

I won't address your machine titration, though even with an ASV knowing my prescribed pressure made setting up the machine easy.

It sounds like you need good quality sleep. My recommendation is to work with a sleep professional (not sleep apnea professional) who will help with your sleep habits and help you learn to get a good quality, restful nights sleep. Good luck.
By the way, I am on ASV and finding it is taking at least six months to achieve optimal results.

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