My Sleep Doc Pontificates

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:14 am

Sleepless in St. Louis wrote:
I showed the correlation in my own case earlier with oximeter data. Centrals are also measured, just the same as obstructive apneas.
No offense Bill, but that is only one person, with one set of data and one set of equipment.

I'm not looking for anyone to convince me to use the data my machine generates via the smartcard. I'm looking for information to help me convince myself that it's a worthwhile use of my time and money. Again, so far I have not heard anything that proves that I would be measuring anything that I can use to my advantage to further my treatment and outcome except mostly anecdotal evidence.

Tim

If you havn't you better stick with what your Dr. says, If you are going to be proactive you have to see what is going on, for you the Dr. without a clue is safer. The rest of us will just have to do with the facts, even if they din't conform to the Dr. and DME's, money plan.

All we want is to live better and that we will. Jim

Sleepless in St. Louis · Post by **Sleepless in St. Louis** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:45 am

If you havn't you better stick with what your Dr. says, If you are going to be proactive you have to see what is going on, for you the Dr. without a clue is safer. The rest of us will just have to do with the facts, even if they din't conform to the Dr. and DME's, money plan.

All we want is to live better and that we will. Jim

Again no offence, but I have no way of knowing if I would be dealing with the facts. Nothing to do with my docs money plan. I'm looking for DATA to support the accuracy of the data being generated from my CPAP. Have to agree with your last point. I just want to feel better and know that I can go to bed without choking myself to the detriment of my health.

Regards, Tim

Brent Hutto · Post by **Brent Hutto** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:52 am

Tim,

Are you looking for per se validation of apneas and hypopnea as measured by APAP machines and by PSG? I'm not sure there's much of that out there. Or can you use studies in which they used PSG to monitor people being treated with APAP and CPAP, in which case there are incidental comparisons (not given in a lot of detail) of the event rates detected by APAP and PSG?

If the latter, I can scrounge up a reference or two for you. If the former, let me know what you find because I'd love to see an actual validation study.

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:12 pm

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Dang! The darned FUD alarm keeps going off this morning. Happened last night too.

Anybody else get that?

Regards,
Bill

FUD-dy Duddy · Post by **FUD-dy Duddy** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:33 pm

Yeah, Bill.......LONG time ago.

I'm trying to figure out why you guys are STILL trying to convince this guy.
He says he's looking for "DATA", but if you presented it to him, he'd ask you for more validation.

Again no offence, but I have no way of knowing if I would be dealing with the facts. Nothing to do with my docs money plan. I'm looking for DATA to support the accuracy of the data being generated from my CPAP. Have to agree with your last point. I just want to feel better and know that I can go to bed without choking myself to the detriment of my health.

Regards, Tim

This guy is just trying to "jerk your chains". He should absolutely NOT buy the software and reader and then have his doctor keep telling him why he isn't feeling better. Obviously, the small price to pay for the software and reader isn't worth the knowledge it will give him. WE know otherwise!!!

F D

Sleepless in St. Louis. · Post by **Sleepless in St. Louis.** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:49 pm

This guy is just trying to "jerk your chains". He should absolutely NOT buy the software and reader and then have his doctor keep telling him why he isn't feeling better. Obviously, the small price to pay for the software and reader isn't worth the knowledge it will give him. WE know otherwise!!!

I'm not trying to jerk anyone's chain. What you guys are doing is just as unhelpful as what the doc told me. "Trust me, we know better than you."

Again, not trying to get anyone to talk me into anything. I WANT to believe that I can purchase this software, use it, and actually monitor my progress. All you are saying is that I should trust what you seem to already know. But how do you know? For all I know you could actually be fooling yourself into thinking you're making adjustments based on fact, when you can't prove it is a fact. If someone could point me to some valid data that shows that cpaps can measure what you think they are measuring, I'd go away satisfied and never bring it up again. You're just telling me to go away.. without an actual question or concern being answered or addressed.

I'm from Missouri....Show me...

Tim

Aswab · Post by **Aswab** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:59 pm

We can't do any better, at least now. Since no one else has piped up with anyting better at this point it appears this is the best we can do. So far we have "showed" you all we have.

At least for now, it is enough for the folks that are doing it. If it is not enough for you then that is how it is.

Again, no one is trying to sell you anything. If you don't want the software and the monitoring capability don't buy it. It is fine by me. It appears to be fine with everyone else.

It does feel, to me, like you are "stirring it up" and, doggone it!, it's working I feel stirred up. When I said I was done and I ain't then it's clear I got stirred up, my chain feels jerked.

If you find something better, please let us know.

I would have PM'd you but you're guested so I'll post it here.

David

hecate · Post by **hecate** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:23 pm

There is several articles that actually suggest a CPAP as a way to diagnose OSA instead of a polysomnography (sleep study). I very much doubt that this would be suggest if the machine through the software was of little use.

An example is:
"A continuous positive airway pressure trial as a novel approach to the diagnosis of the obstructive sleep apnea syndrome."
Author(s): Senn O; Brack T; Russi EW; Bloch KE
Author's Address: Pulmonary Division, University Hospital of Zurich, Rämistrasse 100, 8091 Zurich, Switzerland.
Source: Chest [Chest] 2006 Jan; Vol. 129 (1), pp. 67-75.
Publication Type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:35 pm

It does feel, to me, like you are "stirring it up" and, doggone it!, it's working I feel stirred up. When I said I was done and I ain't then it's clear I got stirred up, my chain feels jerked.

Believe me I have better things to do than to start a flame war. I'm honestly looking for some concrete data, but it may not exist, which I can except. That's all that would have need to have been said. No motive except to help myself. And touche` I could care less if you care if I get the software or not. Great attitute by the way. Maybe your hose is clogged today. Whatever

I may buy the software yet, but take the info it generates with a grain of salt and think of it as directional rather than diagnostic until I see for myself some connection between the way I feel and what the data says about how I should feel.

Aswab · Post by **Aswab** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:03 pm

Peace brother! I think that is a good approach and pretty much the attitude I am taking towards it. Unfortunately I have an older machine that does not provide me any of the data I might want to look at but I have the software and reader in case I get my hands on one. There was a link to the Respironics software that had been freely available on Respironics website but I don't know if it is still available. That and $30.00 for the Hong Kong Card reader makes one ready to go with the Respironics stuff.

Yeah, OSA battles can make one a little irritable at times. Hopefully it wasn't a clogged hose.

Good Luck to you.

David

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:11 pm

Now we're back and track and peace to you as well. Is there only one place to buy the software for the Restronics machines. I saw it at $199. Is that the going price? Am I better of buying my own reader rather than the one that comes bundled?

I call all the chat before like kicking the tires on the care you want. You may not like the tire exactly but you know your going to buy that car anyway even if you start trying to talk yourself out of it.

Tim

Moogy · Post by **Moogy** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:13 pm

http://clinicianinfo.respironics.com/Au ... evices.htm

As a person who also loves data, I have done some searching on this issue. I still hope to get a clinician manual for my machine, but I don't have any real hope that it will give the nitty gritty details, since Respironics probably wants to hide that information from their competitors.

Above is a link to a list of study summaries. These seem to say that automatic machines do a good job choosing the right pressue for patients. While these little summaries don't tell all the facts, it appears that studies have shown the auto machines can tell whether to increase or decrease pressure in order to minimize AHI. So apparently there is some validity to what gets measured.

Wish I knew more, but so far I don't.

Moogy

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:07 pm

Anonymous wrote:Now we're back and track and peace to you as well. Is there only one place to buy the software for the Restronics machines. I saw it at $199. Is that the going price? Am I better of buying my own reader rather than the one that comes bundled?

I call all the chat before like kicking the tires on the care you want. You may not like the tire exactly but you know your going to buy that car anyway even if you start trying to talk yourself out of it.

Tim

There are four options for buying the software and reader from CPAP.COM plus the option of the 2Factors reader, plenty of tires to kick. I normally would suggest a option, but in this case I will not. I am sure for a outrageous fee your DME can also get the software, although he probably can't figure how to install it or use it, mine couldn't neither could my sleep Doctor and that's his business.

Lucky my business is fixing things, and I am good at it, but when someone gives me advice I don't disregard it, and when many say essentally the same, it stands to reason they might have some idea which end is up.

Good Luck with your treatment, I'm going out and check if my tires are still up, and then use my tire gauge to correct my pressure.

Sleepless in St. Louis · Post by **Sleepless in St. Louis** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:17 pm

Good Luck with your treatment, I'm going out and check if my tires are still up, and then use my tire gauge to correct my pressure.

Yes, but how do you KNOW that your guage is actually measureing the pressure that is in the tire and not off by a few PSI? I need hard data to prove to me that your running your car at a safe and accurate tire pressure

Hey, if you can't laugh at yourself you have no right to laugh at others, right? This is me laughing at myself.

Happy hosing.

Tim

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:29 pm

Sleepless in St. Louis wrote:
Good Luck with your treatment, I'm going out and check if my tires are still up, and then use my tire gauge to correct my pressure.
Yes, but how do you KNOW that your guage is actually measureing the pressure that is in the tire and not off by a few PSI? I need hard data to prove to me that your running your car at a safe and accurate tire pressure

Hey, if you can't laugh at yourself you have no right to laugh at others, right? This is me laughing at myself.

Happy hosing.

Tim

I being a "X" Professional rely on the best data I can get, So besides the Encore Software, My other tools include master guages, however Tires at 28 to 32 psi aren't much of a problem, at work I use 175 psi and the tires cost $10,000 to $15,000 each, They like them to be correct.

My Sleep Doc Pontificates

Sleepless in St. Louis

Hard Data

Re: Sleepless in St. Louis