Taping

[GumbyCT]

Archangel's analogy is apt.

Ok, so now there are two.

if the Cpap stops producing air for your nasal mask, you open your mouth and breath out of it. With your mouth taped, you can't.

I have been able to successfully open my mouth without my hands when using "Blue Painters Tape #2008". So I don't consider that a risk.

[SMenasco]

I have a Climateline hose hooked to an S9. The unit is set to start up when I exhale into the nasal pillows. When the unit is off, I can hardly get any air at all when trying to inhale. I have experienced two power outages with this new machine and numerous outages with my old rig. I ALWAYS wake up immediately when the electricity goes off. For those of you equipped with the S9 and ClimateLine hose, why don't you try it and see?

[moresleep]

Archangel's analogy is apt.

Ok, so now there are two.

if the Cpap stops producing air for your nasal mask, you open your mouth and breath out of it. With your mouth taped, you can't.

I have been able to successfully open my mouth without my hands when using "Blue Painters Tape #2008". So I don't consider that a risk.

I'll have to find and try your Blue Painters Tape #2008 to try, but I can't see how it can be much better for this than 3M Micropore (I use 2" size, which I buy in boxes of 20 online), a "paper" medical tape that works quite well.

Do you mean your unconscious struggles to breath would be sufficient to pull your lips free of the tape? If there are such struggles, I would think they would also wake you up so that you could use your hands. The danger is in deep stages of sleep coupled with a temporary physical state (drunk/other drugs) or ongoing medical condition (various) that might leave the user susceptable to sliding into a CO2 coma without struggle. Now, I don't think I'm at risk for any of that; but, if people using FFMs have the added protection of an anti-asphyxia valve as a matter of course, why shouldn't "tapers" have something like that, too? Seems logical enough. As I said, I haven't been able to find one. The closest I have found are more elaborate (and expensive) in-line rebreathing valves intended to switch back and forth between gasses with each breath. Does anyone know where I can find a simple in-line safety valve? Must be available somewhere...

[archangle]

I ALWAYS wake up immediately when the electricity goes off. For those of you equipped with the S9 and ClimateLine hose, why don't you try it and see?

I agree that most people will wake up if the CPAP machines stops. I've always agreed that most tapers will NOT die from taping.

Google "confined space training." In industrial situations, even people who are healthy and awake may lose consciousness and suffocate without noticing anything in a low O2 environment. Presumably, this could happen to a taper as well, and he'd die without waking up.

Even if you will normally wake up if the CPAP shuts down, is this an extra risk if the patient is drunk, drugged (legally or otherwise), impaired by a stroke or other illness, etc.? Even if you tape normally, perhaps you shouldn't tape yourself or your loved one in this situation.

[SMenasco]

I agree with you and promise that on the evening that I am scheduled for a stroke, I will not tape up. And I am so glad I have a choice in that I can have cotton mouth due to not taping, or I can have cotton mouth because I am inebriated. Think I'll just stay here and drink. Tape? Tape? We don't need no stinking tape! Come on, man! You're gagging on knats and swallowing camels.

[appliance repair]

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[moresleep]

Check out http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next for a troubling account of an experiement turning off power to a FFM user--he did not wake up and turned blue, even with the safety valve--and an abstract of a report on the death of a FFM user, apparently because of a taped repair partially blocking the port. I haven't yet been able to get the full report.

[kempo]

Check out http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next for a troubling account of an experiement turning off power to a FFM user--he did not wake up and turned blue, even with the safety valve--and an abstract of a report on the death of a FFM user, apparently because of a taped repair partially blocking the port. I haven't yet been able to get the full report.

The last paragraph says: "Obviously this patient had semi obstructed the exhalation port but they say that even with a fully fuctional port the possibily still exists. The Resmed manual also says that suffication is possible."

Now this is interesting. You can sufficate with a fully fucntional "FULL FACE MASK".

Archangle, you need to start jumping up and down about the death risk of using a full face mask and give us tapers a rest.

By the way you can also slip in the shower and break your neck too!

[archangle]

Archangle, you need to start jumping up and down about the death risk of using a full face mask and give us tapers a rest.

By the way you can also slip in the shower and break your neck too!

Actually, that's not a bad point. There might be some risks of suffocation from power outages even without taping. Even if you don't up and die, you'll probably have worse apnea problems hooked up to an unpowered CPAP than if you take off the mask. CPAPers and people who live with CPAPers should keep it in mind to remove the mask if power fails. Or consider a backup power supply, alarm, etc.

The shower analogy might be apt, too. Apparently, 20,000 people a year die from slips in the slower. It wouldn't hurt us all to keep this in mind getting in and out of the tub, and consider non-skid mats, etc.

[moresleep]

We're all on the same side here, or so I hope. The issue with both FFMs and Taping is certain situations causing rebreathing and the consequent buildup of CO2, or hypercapnia. While I believe the danger of hypercapnia leading to death for reasonably healthy individuals is probably very small, it obviously is there. I am trying to understand the involved mechanisms to determine the best safely precautions. For a "taper," using an anti-asphyxia valve of the type in a FFM seems like a reasonable precaution, if I could find one. But, now there is the troubling possibility that moderate rebreathing may be more dangerous than severe rebreathing, in terms of not arousing the sleeper...

[kempo]

Archangle, you need to start jumping up and down about the death risk of using a full face mask and give us tapers a rest.

By the way you can also slip in the shower and break your neck too!

The shower analogy might be apt, too. Apparently, 20,000 people a year die from slips in the slower. It wouldn't hurt us all to keep this in mind getting in and out of the tub, and consider non-skid mats, etc.

20,000! Good Grief! If that's a fact, you should be over at the shower forum warning everyone about this! There is no facts on the taping.

[archangle]

20,000! Good Grief! If that's a fact, you should be over at the shower forum warning everyone about this! There is no facts on the taping.

If there were people over on the shower forum denying the risk of slipping and falling in the shower, I might be posting warnings over there, too.

[moresleep]

C'mon, now, obviously this is the proper forum for discussing Cpap-related dangers, including dangers that apply to the even smaller "taper" subset. As a "taper," I appreciate Archangel's concern and willingness to provide useful information (on other topics, too, I might add). Unlike the dangers of bathtubs, which are fairly well understood and publicized, the dangers of rebreathing and CO2 buildup for Cpap users in various situations, such as the power going off, are not very well understood. I think we can all agree on two things: that the danger is usually slight for a heathy individual, and, that it is maybe not so slight for someone with a conditions such as COPD which causes non-arousal reactions to CO2. But, what about someone who has several beers after dinner? Is that elevated risk significant to the point that the person should go without Cpap that night, even though their sleep apnea is going to be a lot worse than usual because of the alcohol? And, what about safety measures? An alarm seems safe enough. But, what about an anti-asphyxia valve? Is it adequate to prevent CO2 buildup? or, will it contribute to the danger by providing enough O2 to "lull" the person into continued sleeping while CO2 builds up to dangerous levels? This latter issue is important to FFM users as well as tapers. In fact, until tapers are able to find an in-line anti-asphyxia valve (let me know if you know of one), it's more important to FFM users.

[chunkyfrog]

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Some risk is unavoidable.
The valiant die but once; cowards die a thousand times. . .

[moresleep]

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Some risk is unavoidable.
The valiant die but once; cowards die a thousand times. . .

He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day...

In our case, I believe we valiant tapers should postpone our deaths as long as possible by taking what sensible precautions we can to address recognized risks.