God > CPAP

[Vader]

Christians believe that it is up to God, ultimately, to convince people to follow him (John 6:44, 16:13).

Most atheists have been prayed at by many people. They tend to find it extremely annoying and presumptuous.

In fact, ending a failed attempt to conversion with: "I will pray for you," is often seen as an ugly attempt to get a last dig in--to use your God as an insult. That only hurts your goals.

... not meant to be directed to anyone posting here.

As much as I hate extending this debate, there are a couple things I don't understand. If you could explain I'd really appreciate it.

If no one in this "debate" said "I will pray for you", and you say "it's not meant to be directed at anyone posting here", what point are you trying to make?
I really don't see any relevance to the Holy Scripture verses that you refer to.(based on "my" understanding) Did you make this analysis? or was this *quotation* something that turned up in an internet search by you, from an unknown commentary?

[NightMonkey]

As much as I hate extending this debate, there are a couple things I don't understand. If you could explain I'd really appreciate it.

If no one in this "debate" said "I will pray for you", and you say "it's not meant to be directed at anyone posting here", what point are you trying to make?
I really don't see any relevance to the Holy Scripture verses that you refer to.(based on "my" understanding) Did you make this analysis? or was this *quotation* something that turned up in an internet search by you, from an unknown commentary?

Did you make this analysis?

I thought it would be obvious, by putting the comments in quotes, that the words were not composed by me. Just to satisfy your curiosity the quote is an excerpt from an email that a fellow believer sent me some time ago. He also did not compose it but there is no reference.

What point are you trying to make?

I was obtuse about the point, but to speak candidly, the point I would make to nonbelievers and atheists is that some of us believers (maybe many of us) also find regular proselytizing of nonbelievers and atheists to be "extremely annoying and presumptuous".

I really don't see any relevance to the Holy Scripture verses that you refer to.(based on "my" understanding)

This may be a good point for further discussion if you can get over your "hate for extending this debate"? We may hold different beliefs/"understandings" about this point. I have been taught and believe from my study of the Bible that no man brings another man to God. I believe God draws all people to Himself and the individual decides whether to accept the call.

I thought the two verses quoted were clear on this point: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and "... when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth". But more importantly they fit well in the whole context of the Bible.

[SleemeMitty]

Excuse for that I interfere … I understand this question. Is ready to help.

[Vader]

VADER SAYS : "What point are you trying to make?"

I was obtuse about the point, but to speak candidly, the point I would make to nonbelievers and atheists is that some of us believers (maybe many of us) also find regular proselytizing of nonbelievers and atheists to be "extremely annoying and presumptuous".

VADER SAYS: ahhhh....Okay. I guess that blew by me, sorry. I guess it was late...

I have been taught and believe from my study of the Bible that no man brings another man to God. I believe God draws all people to Himself and the individual decides whether to accept the call.

I thought the two verses quoted were clear on this point: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and "... when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth". But more importantly they fit well in the whole context of the Bible.

Perhaps you're right about saving this part for another debate, but THIS was where I was confused, because the two qoutes from John, refer to not being able to address God, communicate with God, be forgiven by God, etc, unless done THROUGH Jesus. In other words, to do so can only come by acceptance of Christ Jesus. That's really a different meaning than what you implied.
However, in a sense, you are RIGHT about the idea that the Holy Spirit is who will convert you, not the "proselytizer". " In our mortal bodies, we don't have the power to do that.

[Roger2]

I thought the two verses quoted were clear on this point: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and "... when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth". But more importantly they fit well in the whole context of the Bible.

Good pint

"The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat. The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise. He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
(Proverbs 15:29-33)"

Roger

[NightMonkey]

Perhaps you're right about saving this part for another debate,

If you mean this thread, I don't care what is thrown in for debate. Hopefully those who object to OT discussions on a CPAP forum have now learned to avoid a thread labeled, "God > CPAP".

"The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. (Proverbs 15:29-33)"

Roger

I am not so sure about the context of that one. Jesus did associate and dine with the prostitutes, tax collectors, and other sinners and criminals. And the God of the Old Testament did choose murderers, adulterers, and thiefs as leaders of His people.

I thought the two verses quoted were clear on this point: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" and "... when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth". But more importantly they fit well in the whole context of the Bible.

Good pint

I know you meant "point" and just made a typo, but "pint" gives me an opening to insert something that came across my FB newsfeed this morning.

"Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of another."
-Harper Lee

[Roger2]

. . . the God of the Old Testament did choose murderers, adulterers, and thiefs as leaders of His people.

While I am far from being an Old Testament scholar I am somewhat familiar with it. I don’t recall God choosing anyone as a leader specifically. Perhaps you can give a reference to some of those He appointed.

[NightMonkey]

. . . the God of the Old Testament did choose murderers, adulterers, and thiefs as leaders of His people.

While I am far from being an Old Testament scholar I am somewhat familiar with it. I don’t recall God choosing anyone as a leader specifically. Perhaps you can give a reference to some of those He appointed.

Start with Moses, a murderer who was a fugitive from his crime for 40 years before God called him.

Then look into Jacob, David, Solomon, and so on.

Quite a motley crew.

[ems]

The God that I know wouldn't want to be a part of this thread! Ever heard God laugh?

[NightMonkey]

Ever heard God laugh?

Oh, I sure have heard Him laugh at me and it helps me to put things in perspective and laugh at my frustrations, failures, and foibles.

I am very lucky to have found a nearby church where laughter is present at almost every gathering - often quite raucous. And this is a very traditional church with traditional music where the demograpics of the church are heavily skewed to age 50 and over. In other words, this is not a bunch of people my age goofing off. It is a very experienced and well-studied congregation.

I am sure God has a great sense of humor (think platypus).

[Roger2]

Start with Moses, a murderer who was a fugitive from his crime for 40 years before God called him.

Then look into Jacob, David, Solomon, and so on.

Quite a motley crew.

IIf you consider Moses a fugitive for taking his people out of bondage in Egypt, you might have a marginal case but then by that same logic, I would assume you also consider Lincoln a criminal (by General Lee’s logic) for taking the Negros our of slavery.

As for reading all of Jacob, David, Solomon, and so on, I thought you knew specifically what chapter and verse shows that God appointed them as a leader. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

[NightMonkey]

If you consider Moses a fugitive for taking his people out of bondage in Egypt, you might have a marginal case

That is not at all what I was referring to. Instead see, Exodus 2,

11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

If you read further, you will see that Moses, the murderer, fled to the remote area of Midian, took a wife, and lived there as a fugitive for 40 years before he was called by God to be a leader of the exodus.

I would assume you also consider Lincoln a criminal (by General Lee’s logic) for taking the Negros our of slavery.

Oh, there comes that kitchen sink I mentioned earlier! That is such an out-of kilter leap of logic it deserves no reply. An old tactic - invent a strawman - claim it is your debating opponent's position - then attack it.

As for reading all of Jacob, David, Solomon, and so on, I thought you knew specifically what chapter and verse shows that God appointed them as a leader. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

Another invented strawman - I never claimed any extensive or detailed knowledge of the Bible (check my posts). But now you infer I did and attempt to ridicule me.

Your posts in this thread have devolved into silliness that bores me.

See you when you are on firmer footing (in another thread),

[Vader]

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:::::: Vader looks up at ceiling, while whistling "Dixie" ::::::

[Roger2]

I never claimed any extensive or detailed knowledge of the Bible (check my posts).

I could tell that by your posts so there was no need to restate the obvious. Why are you so defensive, do you feel attacked?

I think that this discussion is getting out of hand and this is really not the forum to make it in. Since you seem to have a need to get the last word in go ahead if it makes you feel better and I promise, I will not respond so hopefully you will feel vindicated by that.

Roger