Is it safe to tape mouth to prevent mouth leaks?

[beylow]

Is there that kind of thing which detects the voltage of electrical equipment, when the electrical equipment stop working(voltage drops dramatically), the detector start to BEEP or make some noise to wake up the user?

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/relian ... light.html

This is not the same with what I was talking about. Since it doesn't connect with CPAP machine, it won't detect if the machine in broken.

[LinkC]

I'm gonna go with "doesn't exist". If your machine doesn't have an internal alarm for malfunction, the only indication you'd have is the lack of flow. Presumably, that would wake you up.

If the equipment fails, it will not cause the voltage to drop unless it actually shorts internally (not likely!). And if it did that, the breaker would trip, removing all power. The aforementioned alarm would sound.

[archangle]

A separate device that hooks up to your hose and gives off an alarm if your pressure goes to zero would be a great thing to have. I'll have to think if there's some way to kludge one up at home.

[Guest]

Is it archangle or archangel? I've known a number of geek dorks in my time and I feel sorry for most of them. They just can't quit arguing and usually have few friends due to their overwhelming desire to be right ALL THE TIME! For those of you still interested in the taping topic, go ahead and TAPE to your heart's content. Take it from a taper, It's not in the least dangerous and prevents air recirculation and the resultant dry mouth syndrome. Sorry archie, that's the way I see it.

[LinkC]

While I don't disagree with much of what you say, you would be taken more seriously if you'd sign up/log in. Hiding behind "guest" doesn't do much for your credibility.

[SMenasco]

Sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't logged in. However, credibility is not an unfilled need with me and doesn't have much to do with my opinion of what has been said. Normally, I don't get involved in pi**ing contests, but I was just floored by the air of superiority of the statements and coundn't resist a smart aleck comment. I apologize if I offended any of the rational people on the site.

[DougVK]

Is it archangle or archangel? I've known a number of geek dorks in my time and I feel sorry for most of them. They just can't quit arguing and usually have few friends due to their overwhelming desire to be right ALL THE TIME! For those of you still interested in the taping topic, go ahead and TAPE to your heart's content. Take it from a taper, It's not in the least dangerous and prevents air recirculation and the resultant dry mouth syndrome. Sorry archie, that's the way I see it.

Actually he is RIGHT. You are not a doctor and are giving advice counter to accepted medical knowledge. Taping your mouth shut is dangerious and is ill advised. People are free to do it, but health professionals advise against it.

[DennisG]

Just to throw in my $.02...

There was at least one documented scientific study of mouth taping with CPAP therapy done in Germany found here:

http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/14/6/1251.full.pdf

In their conclusion they state:

"There is an urgent clinical need for a safe and effective
method for preventing mouth leaks during bilevel ventilatory
support. Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation."

This study was done in 1999 and unfortunately, there are still no great solutions.

All this said, I did tape for a couple of years. I am currently using a home-made ace bandage chin strap and mouth cover strap to control mouth leakage. It does not work as well as taping, but I like my facial hair and don't want to have to shave it off.

How's that for taking both sides

Still looking for a better system...

Dennis

[ozij]

I'm very glad you brought up that paper, Dennis, one I have often referred to in this context.
Among the authors of the quoted paper Teschler and Berthon-Jones are among the invetors of the Resmed Autoset and ASV algorrithms.

The caveat quoted is not emphasised in the original. It is customary, when adding one'sown emphasis to a quote to note it was yours. You also did not quote the paragraph immediately following your quote, Dennis.

Here's the original for everyone to see:

There is an urgent clinical need for a safe and effective
method for preventing mouth leaks during bilevel ventilatory
support. Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed. In one patient, taping the mouth caused the
Ptc,CO2 to fall acutely from 8.91 kPa to 5.32 kPa (67
mmHg to 40 mmHg), and it was necessary to reduce the
ventilator settings to compensate.

And here is the quote again, all added emphasis mine:

Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed. In one patient, taping the mouth caused the
Ptc,CO2 to fall acutely from 8.91 kPa to 5.32 kPa (67
mmHg to 40 mmHg), and it was necessary to reduce the
ventilator settings to compensate.

30 patients, about 180 nights per patient, that's 5400 nights of taping in carefully selected and observerd patients with no adverse events. None.

Here's my checklist:

• carefully chosen -- yep, that's me. I very carefully and discriminately chose myself.
• unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak - check
• unable to tolerate a full face mask - couldn't even tolerat a nasal mask when I started taping!
• highly alert - check
• with no historyof regurgitation - check
• faced with the alternatives of tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency - check
• have elected to use tape at home - check

After 4.5 years of taping I had to stop because of congestion. I now can tolerate a Hybrid.

[DougVK]

I'm very glad you brought up that paper, Dennis, one I have often referred to in this context.
Among the authors of the quoted paper Teschler and Berthon-Jones are among the invetors of the Resmed Autoset and ASV algorrithms.

The caveat quoted is not emphasised in the original. It is customary, when adding one'sown emphasis to a quote to note it was yours. You also did not quote the paragraph immediately following your quote, Dennis.

Here's the original for everyone to see:

There is an urgent clinical need for a safe and effective
method for preventing mouth leaks during bilevel ventilatory
support. Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed. In one patient, taping the mouth caused the
Ptc,CO2 to fall acutely from 8.91 kPa to 5.32 kPa (67
mmHg to 40 mmHg), and it was necessary to reduce the
ventilator settings to compensate.

And here is the quote again, all added emphasis mine:

Taping was used in this study in preference to
other ways of sealing the mouth such as a full face mask,
because existing full face masks have higher deadspace,
leak, and discomfort than nosemasks, and arousal data
would be uninterpretable. However, the authors do not at
this stage advocate taping the mouth for indiscriminate
long-term home use, because of the risk of asphyxia in the
presence of nasal obstruction, machine or power failure, or
regurgitation.
Since performing the present study, ~30 carefully chosen
patients, relying on nocturnal support for ventilation but
unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak, unable
to tolerate a full face mask, highly alert, with no history
of regurgitation, and faced with the alternatives of
tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency, have
elected to use tape at home for periods of up to 6 months.
The tape is well tolerated and no adverse events have been
observed. In one patient, taping the mouth caused the
Ptc,CO2 to fall acutely from 8.91 kPa to 5.32 kPa (67
mmHg to 40 mmHg), and it was necessary to reduce the
ventilator settings to compensate.

30 patients, about 180 nights per patient, that's 5400 nights of taping in carefully selected and observerd patients with no adverse events. None.

Here's my checklist:

• carefully chosen -- yep, that's me. I very carefully and discriminately chose myself.
• unable to be satisfactorily treated due to mouth leak - check
• unable to tolerate a full face mask - couldn't even tolerat a nasal mask when I started taping!
• highly alert - check
• with no historyof regurgitation - check
• faced with the alternatives of tracheotomy or untreated respiratory insufficiency - check
• have elected to use tape at home - check

After 4.5 years of taping I had to stop because of congestion. I now can tolerate a Hybrid.

A sample size of 30 people is very small, and so you cannot say it is safe from this study. Even the authors do not say it is safe. You are drawing conclusions which CANNOT be drawn from the study.

[ozij]

I said the authors report 5400 nights with no adverse events, for 30 people, 6 months for each person. 5400 night is not a small sample.

I suggested a checklist based on what the authors considered safe enoughfor letting 30 patients elect to tape.

Each person who sees this information reported by respected medical professionals has to make up their own mind about what is safer for themeselves: untreated respiratory insufficiency during sleep, or the use of tape.

[DougVK]

I said the authors report 5400 nights with no adverse events, for 30 people, 6 months for each person. 5400 night is not a small sample.

I suggested a checklist based on what the authors considered safe enoughfor letting 30 patients elect to tape.

Each person who sees this information reported by respected medical professionals has to make up their own mind about what is safer for themeselves: untreated respiratory insufficiency during sleep, or the use of tape.

Again it is small, because it is based on 30 people. There could be physiological differences in people that would prevent someone from waking in up in time. A sample of 30 people would not capture that. For risk based on physiological differences this is a small sample of 30 not 5400.

You are free to tape as is anyone else, but you shouldn't go around telling people a study has shown it to be safe when it did no such thing.

[ozij]

I said the authors report 5400 nights with no adverse events, for 30 people, 6 months for each person. 5400 night is not a small sample.

I suggested a checklist based on what the authors considered safe enoughfor letting 30 patients elect to tape.

Each person who sees this information reported by respected medical professionals has to make up their own mind about what is safer for themeselves: untreated respiratory insufficiency during sleep, or the use of tape.

Again it is small, because it is based on 30 people. There could be physiological differences in people that would prevent someone from waking in up in time. A sample of 30 people would not capture that. For risk based on physiological differences this is a small sample of 30 not 5400.

You are free to tape as is anyone else, but you shouldn't go around telling people a study has shown it to be safe when it did no such thing.

Kindly point out precisely where in the texts I posted on this thread you see me saying that a study has shown taping to be safe.