IntelliPAP Auto 19, M Series Auto A-Flex 11

[Babette]

DG/Donna - I turned off all flex on my M Series Auto a few months ago and am surprised I am perfectly comfortable without it. I think - in my case - that I've just become adjusted to the therapy and can now breathe fine without the exhalation relief.

This is going to be a very individual call for each user. Tracy, in your particular case, I can't imagine you going without some sort of exhalation relief after your heart surgery. After everything 6ptstar told me following his heart surgery, I think you should use ALL the bells and whistles you can!!!

One of the reasons I wanted to try to do without exhalation relief was that I have been given an older non-flex cpap for "backup" and want to try to leave it at my BF's house to use every weekend. I wanted to be prepped for that. I also read on the forum here about people getting lower AHI's after turning off the flex feature.

Flex was very important to me early on in my therapy. I can't imagine using the machine without it when I was getting used to therapy. It was only after a year and a half of therapy that could turn it off.

Hope this helps some,
Barbara

[araminta]

I'm not a statistician or someone trained in evidence-based scientific studies.
But it makes me uncomfortable to read that the competition gave equal valence to both functional and aesthetic features.

I'd much prefer a conclusion that delineated between the 2: the presence of a power brick (for example) is not a reason to reject technology that has the capability to offer so much more nuanced breathing. So I wish that the announcement of the results had offered at least 2 very separate categories, rather than lumping it all together, and giving the impression that the new kid on the block was the hands down victor in every aspect.

[SharkBait]

Sharkbait, what I found was that I could not even tell the machine didn't have exhale relief. I initially thought it did! I felt no difference there. I do not feel resistance on the breathe out. I also found the machine to sync better with my breathing pattern.

Interesting. Exhale relief is almost too easy for me so I tried turning it off. I lasted about 5 minutes... I wonder what makes that thing easier to breathe against. You'd think nn cmH2O is nn cmH2O, so both machines with no pressure would be about the same.

diselgal, have you tried breathing against the M Series with C-Flex/A-Flex turned off?

[SharkBait]

I guess it's going to depend what you think is important in a machine. I'm not meaning to rag on any of this because I'm not really into machine envy or anything like that. People have Resmeds and are quite passionate about them and I'm happy as can be for them. Same with any other machine...

But looking at the categories:

Quietness - I've no problem with the amount of noise the M Series makes so that's a non issue to me, but I've read plenty that it is an issue with so I can see that being a big one.

Ease of Use - Can't see how it gets any easier but I guess so...

Ease of Cleaning - Who cleans their machine? (okay, I guess a lot do... The one time I did it was like "whatever...")

Breathability - I weigh this more then the other categories combined. Seriously.

Appearance - If I wanted a cool looking machine I would have gotten a ResMed. That thing looks way cooler than both of these combined.

Ease of Travel - I fly a bit. Put the machine and humidifier in the travel case along with the "god forsaken" brick that everyone laments about so and I'm off. I guess I'm a strong dude...

Just my 2 cents. Bottom line more people liked it better and I'm gonna go read a bit more on it, but it seems these categories don't mean as much to me as they might to others. I'm always pulling for the underdog so kudos to the little guy...

[dieselgal]

Sharkbait, I still have both machines set up for use and was about to put up the m-series. Tonight if I get a minute I will turn off the aflex and see what it feels like to breath against the straight cpap flow. Maybe I am just use to it. I will keep you posted.

[Hawthorne]

I agree with you, araminta. I think the aesthetic and functional features should be separated. Using one of your examples, I don't believe that medical therapy equipment should be judged on whether or not it has a power brick, or looks nicer.

It should be judged, primarily on how effectively it treats your condition, in this case ,sleep apnea.

The physcial appearance of each machine has nothing to do with how well it works.

The 2 should be listed separately, in my opinion.

[SharkBait]

Sharkbait, I still have both machines set up for use and was about to put up the m-series. Tonight if I get a minute I will turn off the aflex and see what it feels like to breath against the straight cpap flow. Maybe I am just use to it. I will keep you posted.

Thanks.

I'm very excited for you! Any time we can find something we like BETTER to improve our CPAP therapy, that is always AWESOME!!!

Thanks to you and the others that did such a good job outlining your thoughts on all this!

[zebrajeb]

I'm sure behind on this conversation (having to work today). A couple of further comments:

1. I felt a noticeable difference in not using the A-Flex IntelliPAP. The M Series was much better.

2. I travel a lot and the IntelliPAP is much easier to pack, not as flimsy, etc. and yes the "power brick" takes up space and adds weight which I don't need with everything else I carry.

3. Maybe some merit in terms of weight given to various factors for the product evaluations. Maybe this will be looked at in future evaluations. Of course there are also individual variations on what we think is important!

More later.

John B.

[tdm5032c]

Oh yeah, I'm definitely NOT going to quit using my A-flex for a while Babette, lol. I do realize that everyone is different and it is more of a matter of personal preference than anything else. I might get to the point where I don't need the exhale relief either. Who knows. It doesn't seem to be affecting my numbers though, as my AHI has been well under 1 on a fairly consistent basis for a while now thanks to all the tips and tricks I've learned from all on this forum

Tracy

[JimW203]

I'm not a statistician or someone trained in evidence-based scientific studies.
But it makes me uncomfortable to read that the competition gave equal valence to both functional and aesthetic features.

I'd much prefer a conclusion that delineated between the 2: the presence of a power brick (for example) is not a reason to reject technology that has the capability to offer so much more nuanced breathing. So I wish that the announcement of the results had offered at least 2 very separate categories, rather than lumping it all together, and giving the impression that the new kid on the block was the hands down victor in every aspect.

I was not a participant in this trial, but I appreciate the results. I have done a lot of market studies as part of my professional life; this one fits the model quite nicely.
1) It is a study of user acceptance and preferences, not technological characteristics.
2) The participants were 100% consumers of the study device category, not engineers or science wonks.
3) The two devices were judged by the users on the basis of those characteristics they might use in making a buying decision.

Few people, when buying technical products - cars, TVs, Appliances, etc. spend much time thinking about the truly technical characteristics of the products. I doubt if many here could tell us what the final drive ratio is in top gear in any car they own. What they can tell you is how it looks after being washed and waxed and is sitting in the driveway on a sunny day.

JimW203

[araminta]

Oh Jim, I was impressed with the first part of your comment: the criteria you listed for a solid market survey.
But the second paragraph seemed to underscore the problem I have with the study:

Few people, when buying technical products - cars, TVs, Appliances, etc. spend much time thinking about the truly technical characteristics of the products. I doubt if many here could tell us what the final drive ratio is in top gear in any car they own. What they can tell you is how it looks after being washed and waxed and is sitting in the driveway on a sunny day.

FYI- I'm still driving my 1991 Toyota Corolla wagon. It's been a great car: completely reliable, never breaks down, always starts when I turn the key, & has cost me next to nothing to maintain. It still today gets 30-32mpg in town, and often gets 45-50mpg on the highway. Is it the prettiest car? nix. Do I wish someone with a brain had designed the seatbelt? and the mediocre radio too, while we're at it? But I'm thrilled with it, and would buy it again if they continued making them.

The INtellipap is a nifty product. But I think it's doing a disservice to lump all those issues together when doing a comparison.

[riverdreamer]

I thought the users did a pretty good job of defining just why they liked, or didn't like a machine. Johnny's summary did a pretty good job of describing what was important to people. If the idea is to gain more compliance, so that people make use of treatment at all, then those individuals likes and dislikes are pretty important.

For example, the power brick. for some, it may only be an aesthetic issue. But for someone like me, whose hands have trouble managing heavy objects, or manipulating extra bits and pieces, or would have trouble carrying the extra weight when traveling, it could be a significant objection.

To some noise is no issue, but to someone who has hearing hypersensitivity, it could be a make or break issue, as demonstrated frequently by new CPAPer's complaining about the noise of their machine. I am a long time insomniac who is disturbed by all kinds of noise, and it was major factor in my choice of my machine that it was supposed to be 5 dcb quieter than any other machine. I am extremely pleased with how quiet it is, even with EPR and on auto mode.

That is what I liked about the feedback on the machines. It was very subjective, but most participants explained why an issue mattered to them. It allows me to evaluate what would be important to me. For someone new to CPAP, it might even bring up issues they hadn't thought about.

If it was going to be an unbiased, totally objective study, it would have to be done with patients who had never used any machine, and someone other than the patients would have to be involved in the scoring of treatment results, as well as the patients giving feedback. That kind of study would be very expensive, and might not give us the kind of information that would matter to us anyway. Plus, it is obvious that success in treatment is also individual, as some do better with the algorithms in one machine, while someone else dose better with another. Now, if we could figure out ahead of time who needs which algorithm, THAT would be really useful.

[RipVW]

I also was in the trial. I think it was a great service and really appreciate cpap.com for putting it together. I am sticking with the M Series for my main machine simply because of the A-flex feature which I think makes breathability better. Otherwise, I generally liked the IntelliPAP better and rated it better overall - especially for travel. As was mentioned, you can read everyone's comments on the product challenge results.

John B.

That's what shocks me is that so many chose a machine with no exhale relief over a perfectly good machine that does. I guess you can get used to no exhale relief if you try...

Not me. No exhale relief feature was a deal breaker for me. A-FLEX is just SO MUCH MORE comfortable. If IntelliPAP adds that feature, then they'll have a real competitor for the M-Series, in my opinion.

[Georgio]

I was included in the challenge and appreciate the opportunity very much. I was very excited about the prospect of trying the "latest" equipment developed with cpap.com input. I thought I might even receive superior therapy and feel that much better. Unfortunately, that was not the case with me. After using the Intellipap on auto at the same settings (7-12) as the M-Series for 12 days, I had regressed to pre-cpap days feelings of speaking very slowly and having difficulty driving. Even though the machine reported relatively low AHI's. I had to go back on the M-Series and took a few days to get back to "normal".

I did carefully examine my nightly data from the Intellipap. What it showed was that it stayed at 6.9 all night with little or no change in pressure to respond to my sleep events, I.e. the pressure chart showed a flat line....with maybe one increase some nights. My speculation is that the machine did not respond to my "lesser" sleep events like flow limitations and hypopneas. The M-Series reports typically show numerous "chair like" pressure variations during the night that I guess make the difference for me. It is a very well thought out design and has the potential to provide very good service for some. I just think that, like other manufacturers, the algorithm is proprietary and does not fit everyone the best. Bright lights and power bricks are not that important to me.

Regarding "exhalation relief", while the manufacturer does not bill the machine as having a exhalation relief feature, they do claim the machine monitors your breathing, inhalation and exhalation and adjusts to each individuals own breathing. I found it only slightly more difficult to exhale (at 7), and certainly not a deal breaker.

The Intellipap does have a feature where you can adjust the sensitivity for detection of sleep events. I'm not sure if it changes the therapy it provides, or just changes the way it reports the therapy, and plan to look into this in case I can "adjust" the machine to provide better therapy for me.

Again, cpap.com thanks for the opportunity. I would like to add that, in my opinion, the challenge was unbiased and fairly run. Every bit of negative comments were included in the results.

Georgio

[Hose_Head]

Regarding "exhalation relief", while the manufacturer does not bill the machine as having a exhalation relief feature, they do claim the machine monitors your breathing, inhalation and exhalation and adjusts to each individuals own breathing. I found it only slightly more difficult to exhale (at 7), and certainly not a deal breaker.
Georgio

Is there anyone on the board who can explain what it means by "adjusts to each individual's own breathing"? If it's not expiration relief, then what is it?

I suspect this is related to the multiple reports from the challenge particpants that the intellipap "followed my breathing". That sounds like expiration relief, too.

Does this unit have a form of expiration relief, or not?

Like some others, lack of expiration relief would be a deal breaker for me.