Very first FF mask: Any suggestions?

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:46 pm

I used a Mirage Activa now and overall it's a decent mask. It does leak but which one doesn't? I find that keeping the part that touches your face regularly clean helps immensely when those leak rates start to creep up.

I've used a Mirage Swift in the past but got sore nares rather quickly for a reason that is very specific to me. So, the Activa did wonders in that regard.

But I'm an allergy sufferer. I tend to keep a box of tissues close at all times. I take Clariton and Nasonex. And still...a day like today? In Austin? The faucet finally turned off after I decided for sure I couldn't take a nap when I tried earlier.

I'm looking into the Mirage Quattro FF and the Mirage Ultra FF at the moment. I did the mask measurements and found that depending on model, I have a different size for most of them. I found that interesting. For example, on a Quattro I need a small but on a Ultra I need a medium.

Any suggestions for FF's? My leak rates are higher than I'd like now with the Activa. They seem to average about 0.35 l/s. Monday I got 0.24 l/s which was great for me as far as the read out goes. I think I'm supposed to get below 0.15 or something like that but I've never been able to do it.

jimbassett · Post by **jimbassett** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:58 pm

The Ultra FF is my favorite mask, right behind that is the Quattro FF. I found the same thing as you did. I take a small in the Quattro and a med. in the Ultra FF. A med Quattro is way too big for me. The basic reason I like the FF masks is that I tend to open my mouth when asleep so had to devise all sorts of ways to stop the leakage out my mouth. With the FF it is put it on and forget it. No fussing with leaks and mouth breathing. I still find I have opened my mouth while sleeping, but I didn't lose any pressure to the outside world. Just made my mouth kinda dry. Go for it no problems. jim

MikeSleeper · Post by **MikeSleeper** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:18 pm

I've been back and forth between the Resmed Ultra FF and the F&P FlexFit HC431. Both of these, when adjusted right, create a pillow of air inside the thin silicon flange... and, if adjusted right, not too tight, are very comfy. My problem is I am now working up to higher pressures (13+) and due to my face structure, the air pillow just doesn't hold at that point, and I am forced to tighten it way down to avoid leaks. When over-tightened, I start feeling the harder, inner support, and the FlexFit HC431 wins for that. The under chin design in the 431 is v. comfy even when tight (for me), where as the Ultra really hurts just below my bottom lip.

As you know, you just gotta try em, other will say the opposite. Get cpap.com mask insurance.

glfredrick · Post by **glfredrick** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:15 am

jimbassett wrote:The Ultra FF is my favorite mask, right behind that is the Quattro FF. I found the same thing as you did. I take a small in the Quattro and a med. in the Ultra FF. A med Quattro is way too big for me. The basic reason I like the FF masks is that I tend to open my mouth when asleep so had to devise all sorts of ways to stop the leakage out my mouth. With the FF it is put it on and forget it. No fussing with leaks and mouth breathing. I still find I have opened my mouth while sleeping, but I didn't lose any pressure to the outside world. Just made my mouth kinda dry. Go for it no problems. jim

This has been my expeirence with the Quatro...

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:01 pm

Thanks guys. I appreciate the suggestions. Keep them coming!

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:50 pm

I would stick with the UMFF, it has a much better track record, in my opinion, the Quattro is plagued with problems, from sudden leaks and noise emitting from the elbow/entrainment valve to the forehead pads popping out while trying to put the thing on. After spending that much for a interface, you should NOT have to wrap the elbow with teflon tape to make it work.

Then despite Resmed's claim, I found the Quattro to be actually more noisy than the UMFF (had them both, still have several UMFF's). Hold your hand about 8 to 12" in front of your face and you can feel a solid stream of air coming off the Quattro, your partner will love that, not so with the UMFF. Overall I wasn't impressed with the Quattro's newly designed exhaust and most of all I felt worse using it (compared to UMFF). While that rotary knob may first appear convenient, I found it annoying you could not tell where your setting was and you spent much of your time turning that knob.

For the most part, the cushions are about the same, head gear about the same except they did away with the top quick release clips and use a hooked loop to attach the headgear at the top, you can remove it without losing your strap settings but clips were better in my opinion. They made the forehead piece narrower than the UMFF's supposedly for side sleeping but I didn't find that to be any benefit and found the silicone forehead pads continually popping out annoying.

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:46 pm

Great! I just ordered the Quattro. LOL! Well, I did purchase the return insurance because this will be a first purchase. If all goes well...then the insurance would be un-needed on the 2nd and further masks as long as I'm sticking with the same size.

I see good reviews for both masks and ultimately, 6 months from now, I'll be picking up the opposite one for comparison. I like the idea of having 2 masks: 1 FF and 1 Nasal only.

I hope my experience isn't quite as plagued as yours SD. Perhaps I'll get lucky. Time will tell because the order is already placed.

P.S. I assume I won't need a chin strap for these FF's???

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Okay, called customer service! Got them to switch the order before it went to shipping. UMFF medium standard on the way! (I hope)

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:33 pm

> Okay, called customer service! Got them to switch the order

I hate to confuse you further, but I have used both, and the Quattro leaks _much_ less (hardly ever) for me, compared to the UM. Putting that, what is it called?, piece around the inside of the cushion seems to be what has improved it so much. Once I learned the trick of using teflon tape on the elbow, my leak rate reduced some and everything is fine.

I wonder if some are just having trouble putting it all together before bedtime. You have to hear three distinct clicks when the cushion is mounted onto the plastic mask frame. Geek that I am, I then go around the whole 360 with my thumbnail pressing it onto the frame. Works, though. I used to be _plagued_ with leaks with the UM, and I was the same geek then as I am now. :)

With all our gear, it's a case of "details matter". The problem is that many of us are so bleary eyed from lack of good sleep that it's difficult to pay attention to the level of detail that makes things work well.

SleepGuy · Post by **SleepGuy** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:05 pm

My primary mask since forever is the Activa.

I recently added a FF mask for times when I have a cold.

I picked up the Quattro and like it ok. I don't use it enough really get used to it. Seems to leak most around my chin, depending on my jaw position.

I did not try the Ultra so I can't compare. The fitting seems like it's a bit tricky so I'd recommend having a technician fit you out.

Good luck.

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:06 pm

Oh, Hell......order BOTH!

I have a size Large in both UMFF & Quattro and haven't experienced any specific problems from either (other than the leak that the Teflon tape fixed), but I can tell that the Quattro is just a bit longer than the UMFF. However, I've never tried a Medium Quattro, so I can't say that that would be a "better" fit......but, like I said, I can wear either without problems. With the "Teflon tape fix" I get a lower leak rate with the Quattro......but I like the slightly higher Vent Flow Rate of the UMFF, and the feeling of extra air inside the mask.....I can breathe better.

Den

Rastaman · Post by **Rastaman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:43 pm

Yep, got the confirmation. I'm getting a UMFF! (medium standard). It only cost $3 more because the insurance was less. Who knows? I might need something different. But according to the website fitting tool I have my measurement written down for future use.

I still have 3 or 4 Activa's running around here including a shallow (I normally wear a regular) so there are lots of options and of course the nose settings. I will say that I don't vaguely understand the teflon tape fix and I don't like the idea of extra add-on's but then again, whatever works the best right?

My new APAP arived today (PB Goodknight 420E). I haven't opened the box yet but it only took a day to get here. Wow! Fast! Way to go cpap.com! I expect the mask probably Monday or Tuesday. I'm having a terrible time right now with allergies. If I'm not dripping I'm stuffy and can't breath. I took the ramp off my machine last night and just let it blow at 13 (straight cpap with epr at 3) and it was so much nicer because I could breath. Problem solved right? Nope! I'm not even sick. Not really. This is just normal allergies I guess. If I get the flu? OMG! I think I just might need that FF even if there is a massive leak problem. I hope my face fits it right.

So many variables.

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:25 am

Rastaman wrote:Yep, got the confirmation. I'm getting a UMFF! (medium standard). It only cost $3 more because the insurance was less. Who knows? I might need something different. But according to the website fitting tool I have my measurement written down for future use.

I still have 3 or 4 Activa's running around here including a shallow (I normally wear a regular) so there are lots of options and of course the nose settings. I will say that I don't vaguely understand the teflon tape fix and I don't like the idea of extra add-on's but then again, whatever works the best right?

My new APAP arived today (PB Goodknight 420E). I haven't opened the box yet but it only took a day to get here. Wow! Fast! Way to go cpap.com! I expect the mask probably Monday or Tuesday. I'm having a terrible time right now with allergies. If I'm not dripping I'm stuffy and can't breath. I took the ramp off my machine last night and just let it blow at 13 (straight cpap with epr at 3) and it was so much nicer because I could breath. Problem solved right? Nope! I'm not even sick. Not really. This is just normal allergies I guess. If I get the flu? OMG! I think I just might need that FF even if there is a massive leak problem. I hope my face fits it right.

So many variables.

Either mask is probably the better FF on the market, I used the UMFF for 3 or more years before going back to a nasal mask for better therapy and controlling leaks. I got one of the first Quattro's introduced but it seems they never bothered to address the problem of the elbow leak even to this day. I told Hazel but that ole bag never listened Mine leaked bad, it leaked so much from the elbow the machine's alarm went off.

As far as comfort goes both cushions were comfortable (compared to other FF masks). UMFF has always had the best sealing cushion for a FF mask. I've only purchased and tried about 20 different masks in the past 8 years being on this therapy, still have a drawer full of duds.

Insurance has never paid for a machine or mask for me, so when it comes to buying something new, I usually research it pretty good and have learned to look for certain characteristics in a mask design. For example, I have never purchased a F&P FF mask because they lack forehead support, etc.

Features I look for in a well designed mask:

1. Forehead support - you need that if you want to "pivot" the mask fore and aft to control leaks into the eyes. With no forehead support how can you pivot it and stop those leaks?

2. Quick Release Headgear Clips: Headgear should have quick release clips so you can completely remove the headgear from the mask for washing. If you have to remove the velcro setting to clean your mask that means you have to re-adjust it every time you clean it, some of these mfgs suggest cleaning every day. I wash my mask complete never removing the cushion, I treat it like a bar glass and give it the agitation in the sink with soapy Dawn liquid citrus antibacterial hand soap.

3. Cushion: the cushion should be designed with a stiff skirt and a soft membrane liner that goes against your skin. That way CPAP pressure pushes against that thin membrane and helps make the seal between it and your skin. A Gel cushion with large "rolled" edge is probably the worst sealing mask you can buy. CPAP pressure can get under that "rolled" edge and easily push its way out.

4. CO2 washout characteristics: All masks have different leak rates, all have similar but different delivery ports. The exhaust on the mask is important, some can act like a vacuum and draw CO2 out of your breath, these masks will feel very refreshing (if you compare to other masks with a lower exhaust rate). This is a personal thing, I have difficulty at times with central apnea, if a mask flushes too much out for me those go up in count during the night. If I use a mask that retains more those go down or not show up at all. While that mask may not feel as refreshing as the other I feel better the next day. I can tell the difference right away, the UMFF has greater (my opinion better washout) compared to the Quattro. Quattro's exhaust design seems to have come out of the design from the Adapt SV where CO2 manipulation appears critical in aiding therapy with that machine. My opinion the Quattro retains more and the UMFF feels more refreshing which makes the incoming air cooler. Where I live it is usually warm (was 91F today), so cooler is better yet my CA count will climb.

If Quattro is your first and only FF mask you'd think it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I've tried a few over the years including the Quattro. I've used them both in the same night, you can see the difference if you do that.

Not much difference in cost now, when I bought my Quattro it was $239, way over priced in my opinion.

Fredman · Post by **Fredman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:24 am

I too am looking for FF mask. Any thoughts on the ComfortFull from Respironics. I tried the Mirage FF mask and it leaked too much and shot out air straight out at my wife...that mask did not make it past 10 minutes!

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:16 am

Fredman wrote:I too am looking for FF mask. Any thoughts on the ComfortFull from Respironics. I tried the Mirage FF mask and it leaked too much and shot out air straight out at my wife...that mask did not make it past 10 minutes!

Huh?
The UMFF I wear directs the air ABOVE my wife's head and is much better than the Comfortfull 2 would be in that the Comfortfull 2 shoots the air straight out the elbow and would be aiming it at my wife's face.......another reason I don't wear it......the MAIN reason being that it's a piece of junk and a poor excuse for a therapy mask (for ME)......lousy fit.

Den

Mask

Additional Comments: Pressure = 16!!!