Melatonin - My Results

[Nazareth]

[[Last night I used a 1mg pill taken about 1.5 hours before mask time and I woke up at 3am wide awake. My mind blinked awake and i couldn't get back to sleep for over an hour.]]

Yup- Any kind of 'sleep help' medications do that to me too- I will fall fast asleep for about 3-4 hours, then my mind just snaps awake- fully awake, and I can't get back to sleep- Very frustrating- Messing with out systems with meds aint a good hting unless it is absolutely needed in my opinion- Our sleep might not be too good on it's own, without sleep help meds, but at least when we do fall asleep, we stay asleep and don't have the nagging problem of jerking awake and not being able to fall back asleep.

[roster]

.......

Docs love to issue perscriptiuons for 'depression' when they are at a loss to explain a person's symptoms, and I think this country is WAY over-perscribed for anti-depressents-

Yeah, I know first hand about this crap. Docs gave me antidepressants for undiagnosed osa. I tried three different ones but after a few days of each one I was only getting worse and discontinued them. SOBs.

[Nazareth]

Yup, they did the exact saME THING to me, didn't know what was causing my muscle pain/weakness, and basically wrote me off as 'depressed'- Tried several different drugs, and they all made my condition worse- one exception was elavil, which did make me sleep very soundly, but it did nothign to help my excersize intolorance issue during hte day- I gave several drugs a good shot at working, but found they only aggravated my condition- when I explained it to docs they said "Well, itm ight be that we just haven't foun d the right depression medicine- let's keep trying' I just love how Docs write off medicare patients liek that- so nice to know they are looking out for our best interest (/sarcasm) I've been trying to find out for 14 years now what is causing my muscle pain/weakness/excersize intolorance, and i simply can NOT find a doctor that will do some thorough testing beyond just the basic blood tests, basic neurological tests that al; show nothing wrong in the basic department. Very Very frustrating being written off as 'depressed' and given drugs to treat soemthign we don't have!

[Snoredog]

........

So, like Rooster, I think I will discontinue use altogether.

A concern about taking melatonin (or any sleep aid) that we did not yet mention is the possibility that it will improve sleep while masking another problem.

From past experience, I was prescribed sleep drugs and sedatives while the underlying problem, severe obstructive sleep apnea, was overlooked.

And then after I received a proper diagnosis and started cpap therapy I still had problems sleeping. Again the docs prescribed sleep drugs and sedatives which tended to mask another problem - asymptomatic GERD.

So there is this concern with melatonin, i.e., that it might mask the fact that my cpap therapy is not working properely, or the GERD therapy is not working properly, or that there are other undiscovered ailments.

Someone do like the car manufacturers, implant a plug in us and when something is wrong just download the data and read the error codes.

[Susanm]

I've been trying to find out for 14 years now what is causing my muscle pain/weakness/excersize intolorance, and i simply can NOT find a doctor that will do some thorough testing beyond just the basic blood tests, basic neurological tests that al; show nothing wrong in the basic department. Very Very frustrating being written off as 'depressed' and given drugs to treat soemthign we don't have!

Are there any medical schools nearby that might be affiliated with a hospital or family practice? I had the same problem with docs until I started going to the University Medical Center's family practice unit. My doctor is young, probably not too many years out of med school, and seemed to find my problems a challenge instead of an annoyance. She's the first one who ever bothered to ask me about snoring and my sleep quality. She sent me for a sleep study, and the rest is history. She's even called my house twice(!) to see how the cpap was coming along. Such a difference from the ones in the town where I live.

Susan M

[Snoredog]

Rooster, I haven't read everyone's replies here, so if this has been said before- I apologize- but just wanted to way in here as I've had some experience with Melatonin.

I believe Mel is a seratonin modulator, and that might explain why your mood is lifted, but, I must point out, that Mel also works by relaxing muscles, which, if you've got the physical form of sleep apnea, isn't a good thing because after all the problem with hte apnea is that the throat is getting blocked off because of relaxed muscles and tissue to begin with. So, while it helps us to sleep, the mel might also be worsening hte apneas if the apneas are physical in nature and not neurological, so it might be adding apnea events that you wouldn't ordinarily experience- It would b3e nice to see someone's recordings from the encore software after taking mel to see if it is indeed causing more events

Also, be careful, if Mel dies mess with Seratonin levels, that isn't a good thing- there are now warnings on popular 'depression modulating' anti-depressents which warn about increased suicidal tendancies- Docs love to issue perscriptiuons for 'depression' when they are at a loss to explain a person's symptoms, and I think this country is WAY over-perscribed for anti-depressents-

I think you have melatonin confused something else. Melatonin does not directly cause the muscles to relax but it may present that effect depending on the species, so your theory only provides more misinformation. Melatonin in humans is not known to be a muscle relaxant you would take for back pain for example.

Please show us some studies to support your theory that melatonin would contribute to muscle relaxation thereby increasing the effects of OSA.

[Nazareth]

oh really?

"
Abstract: The influence of melatonin on alpha- and beta-adrenergic responses of vascular smooth muscle ex vivo were examined in these experiments. Melatonin caused a dose-dependent relaxation of precontracted (30 mM KCl) vascular smooth muscle."

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... .tb00823.x

"In subjects with nocturnal asthma, increasing melatonin levels were significantly and inversely correlated with overnight change in FEV1 (a measure of the ability to expell air from the lungs), a relationship that was not observed in non-nocturnal asthma or healthy controls."

http://www.thesleepsite.com/pressreleasepage.html

"Melatonin caused a dose-dependent relaxation of precontracted (30 mM KCl) pulmonary artery and vein, although the effect is greater in arterial smooth muscle."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... stractPlus

But thanks for shouting!

[Snoredog]

oh really?

"
Abstract: The influence of melatonin on alpha- and beta-adrenergic responses of vascular smooth muscle ex vivo were examined in these experiments. Melatonin caused a dose-dependent relaxation of precontracted (30 mM KCl) vascular smooth muscle."

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... .tb00823.x

But thanks for shouting!

again, you are talking about RATS! show me human studies.

[Nazareth]

again, you are talking about RATS!

YOUR POINT???

"In human tissue, melatonin caused bronchial smooth muscle relaxation in surgical specimens obtained from patients suffering from bronchiectasis and lung cancer (49).

No significant adverse effects were reported by our subjects after melatonin treatment. Previously, a study looking into the safety of chronic melatonin administration in healthy subjects did not find any significant side effects (19). This was confirmed by other investigators (50). In contrast, an increase in apnea-hypopnea index, mean apnea duration, and longest apnea duration after melatonin administration has been described in 12 patients with obstructive sleep apnea syndrome treated with nasal CPAP (51)."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... 61330/pg_4

Melatonin in humans is not known to be a muscle relaxant you would take for back pain for example.

I see you editted your post to include the possibility of muscle relaxing effects- I never said Melatonin can be used as a muscle relaxant- I was saying that melatonin acts as a sedative, and sedatives work to relax muscle and may be not good for sleep apnea in that respect- People with sleep apnea when trested on melatonin showed decresed oxygen suturation as you'll note at http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/action ... ookieSet=1 personally, after taking it myself, I've felt quite a bit worse the next day, and feel run down, and increased melatonin levels might be why as noted by hte last study I posted where is said "To conclude, melatonin which normally has a strong circadian rhythm with low serum levels during the daytime was elevated in the afternoon in two groups of patients with sleep disordered breathing.".

"Melatonin supplementation has rapid and mild sleep inducing effects, by interacting with melatonin receptors in the brain it acts as a sedative and hypnotic."

http://www.mysticmedicine.com/sleep-dis ... ent-2.html

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): CPAP

[HighnoteX]

Bletcherous login not working, maybe related to the server upgrade.

With such nice positives I would like to figure out what is going on with that 1:00-3:00 time period. Also that concern is still there about melatonin receptor desensitization if I continue 3 mg dose.

"To conclude, melatonin which normally has a strong circadian rhythm with low serum levels during the daytime was elevated in the afternoon in two groups of patients with sleep disordered breathing."

^^^That may be your answer....link is dead unforch.

...........
I personally take Twinlab 2mg sustained release several hours before bedtime for delayed sleep phase syndrome, and plan to continue to do so. I'd take a smaller sustained release dose if someone made one. I don't take it on the weekend to give my body a break.

Can you tell us what you observe in sleep patterns/daytime alertness and mood comparing weekdays to weekends? Thanks.

It does not affect my daytime alertness or mood. Other "sustained release" brands that I suspect were "dose-dumping" did make me sleepy. Sleep schedule stays about the same on the weekend. If I stay off it for more than 4 days, then the schedule starts to drift later.

[[Last night I used a 1mg pill taken about 1.5 hours before mask time and I woke up at 3am wide awake. My mind blinked awake and i couldn't get back to sleep for over an hour.]]

Yup- Any kind of 'sleep help' medications do that to me too- I will fall fast asleep for about 3-4 hours, then my mind just snaps awake- fully awake, and I can't get back to sleep-

Ditto...melatonin clearing out of the system is a signal to start waking up. Normally the pineal gland stops producing it about 2 hours before wakeup time. When taking 1 mg at bedtime, the body clears the excess amount in an hour or two, which may fool the body clock into thinking it's morning at 3 am. I experienced the same thing with Rozerem, which is similar to melatonin in everything but price.


This forum reminds me of Usenet News in the days before the Internet, when spam still came in a can and good discussions were the norm. Thanks and keep it up!

[Nazareth]

the links still work for me- maybe the site was down temporarily? It was a study done on sleep apnea patients that showed increased levels of melatonin in the afternoon when melatonin is supposed to be lowest. I'm wondering if perhaps that is hte reason that people with sleep apnea have such a hard time fighting to stay awake during hte day or if it's juts sleep deprivation or perhaps a combo of both- sleep deprived and too much Melatonin cuasing excessive and sometimes dangerous sleepiness during day

[Snoredog]

so much for the scientific studies, seems you can come up with some kind of study you want to sway the result any way you want it, then there will only be another one come along to dispute what the other said, an example:

This one says melatonin improves sleep with asthma:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... 61330/pg_1

And this one says the complete opposite as it relates to asthma:
http://www.naturalproductsmarketplace.c ... 12743.html

[Nazareth]

Yes Yes snoredog- the studies don't exist- the information that therte is the possibilitiy that adding DRUGS to your system might be harmful doesn't exist, the fact that there hasn't been extensive testing for the DRUG shouldn't bother anyone in the slightest, and messing with our systems without any sceintific background and experience in the situation should be of no concern to anyone- You're right- Pffff- studies- who needs em? Just believe what ya want and everythign will be just fine. It's 'all natural' after all- sedation is our friend! What we don't know can't hurt us.

"A new study shows that melatonin, a hormone available without prescription, has broader effects in the brain than once thought. In experiments on the Japanese quail, the researchers found that melatonin switches on a recently discovered hormone called gonadotropin inhibitory hormone (GnIH),

Though the role of melatonin is likely to be more complex in humans, the fact that the hormone has such a big effect on birds suggests it could have significant though unnoticed effects in humans,"

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/rele ... nfin.shtml

"In order to test the efficacy of the pineal neurohumor melatonin on depression, the hormone was administered in varying doses to six moderately to severely depressed patients and two patients with Huntington's chorea in double-blind crossover study. Melatonin exacerbated symptoms of dysphoria in these patients, as well as causing a loss of sleep and weight and a drop in oral temperature. Melatonin increased cerebrospinal fluid 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid and calcium in three of four patients studied"

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 33/10/1181

"Advertisements promise no negative effects of melatonin and no dependence. However the effects on insomnia are usually poor and only a small group of patients might have any effect. Other therapy approach for insomnia would be better (including stress reduction, relaxation therapy, sleep hygiene, sleep restriction). But some patients prefer to drop a pill instead of a psychotherapeutic approach to change their sleeping habits or problems.

Chronic use of melatonin is not recommended, because we do not know much about long-term effects, side effects or interaction with other drugs."

http://web4health.info/en/answers/sleep ... n-what.htm

'“Administration of melatonin is useful, when correctly timed, in certain types of human circadian rhythm disorder leading to sleep problems. There is insufficient scientific evidence for any other therapeutic uses in humans as yet. There is no information on possible harmful long-term side effects. Melatonin may be dangerous if incorrectly timed, and should not be taken without medical supervision.”'

http://health.learninginfo.org/melatonin.htm

Look- All I';m saying is that messing with our systems by shoveling stuff into our systems and thinking it's alright because the products are 'all natural' isn't a very wisde descision based on the fact that we have absolutely no idea what it might be doing to us in areas that we aren't even aware of, and that science itself isn't completely aware of. Melatonin messes with a delicate hormone system which is very sensitive to changes and can have far reaching effects on our health without our even realizing it. The hormones are nothign to mess witrh- the effects of hormones are little understood, and affect nearly every aspect of our finely tuned systems, and messing with htem could eventually lead to problems down the road that we certainly hadn';t anticipated or foreseen. Being that melatonin is a hormone regulator, as well as being a hypnotic and sedative, it could very well be that it is suppressing our systems and causing a relaxed state in our muscles that only exacerbate sleep apnea. If you wish tyo ignore that fact, that's fine- but don't be comin down on others that might have some concerns over it. This goes for any 'all natural' product, not just melatonin-

We try to play 'doctor' by self administering products we think are safe because they are 'all natural', yet these seemingly bening products can be having a very negative affect on areas in our systems that we aren't even aware of. While a product may indeed help some people some of the time, in a certain area, the fact is that these products don't simply work on juts one area in our systems, and may be harming us in areas that we aren't aware of. There's a reason why doctors cringe when patients tell them that they are self-administering 'all natural' DRUGS.
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[roster]

Lordy Snoredog, it looks like you are letting melatonin become your "beer-belly campaign".

[Highnote]

the links still work for me- maybe the site was down temporarily? It was a study done on sleep apnea patients that showed increased levels of melatonin in the afternoon when melatonin is supposed to be lowest. I'm wondering if perhaps that is hte reason that people with sleep apnea have such a hard time fighting to stay awake during hte day or if it's juts sleep deprivation or perhaps a combo of both- sleep deprived and too much Melatonin cuasing excessive and sometimes dangerous sleepiness during day

Got to it by searching on the site....this is a novel result in a 9-year old study. I could not find anything more recent confirming it. The circadian rhythm-strengthening effect of external nighttime melatonin could still explain Rooster's day-after sleepiness during the normal afternoon circadian low.

This study, just out, found that nocturnal melatonin secretion is hosed up in hose-heads:

"Patients with OSAS have an abnormal melatonin secretion pattern. The absence of a nocturnal serum melatonin peak could partially be related to the difficulty that these patients have to achieve a normal sleep-wakefulness pattern."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Being that melatonin is a hormone regulator, as well as being a hypnotic and sedative, it could very well be that it is suppressing our systems and causing a relaxed state in our muscles that only exacerbate sleep apnea.

I asked sleep doc for sedative/hypnotic for sleep study. He gave me Ambien with the comment that it would make sleep-disordered breathing worse. Probably they all do. At least melatonin is not a controlled substance like almost all the others.