Ever Notice how some threads. . .

[WillSucceed]

I volunteer to hold a pillow over your face 42 times and hour, every hour, while you sleep. I will do this for a month. At the end of that month you can attempt to drive, and hold an intellegent conversation, also....you can try to carry on a relationship or go on a date. Maybe 2 months.
Then you can go on CPAP at a pressure of 14...maybe higher, with a full face mask. I will still put the pillow over your face....but only 4 times an hour, and I will make sure to do it a few extra times every once in a while to simulate a "bad" night.
Then you multiply how shitty you feel by about 100....as many of us have done this for wayyyyyyy longer than a month. While we are at it....you can wear a fat suit for the entire month or two....so you can also see how hard it is to carry it around after sleep deprivation.


I am always there to offer a helping hand...I am just giving that way.

ROFLMAO!!! What a great description! I wish I had thought of it.

[Rabid1]

You know what?

STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ON SPLIT_CITY!!!!!!

The man has his opinions, and has tried to stimulate honest discussion. He has been a gentleman throughout being gunned down.

Go ahead and debate his theories, but he's done nothing to deserve the personal attacks.

[split_city]

Ok.....I will start with one of the reasons I think your study is retarted and go from there.

I have been anorexic, overweight, normal weight, pregnant and just about anything else in between. None of those things feels or acts at all like putting on a belt to tight.

I thankyou for your input and I'm glad you provided reasons to why you don't think my study is valid.

I refer you to a post I made earlier in reply to a post by Jem:

Your are correct is saying that people don't sleep with tight belts around their abdomen. The purpose of the belt was to increase pressure inside the abdomen. This is common in overweight people, particularly males because this is where males predominantly store excess fat. Neverthess, we believe that this increased pressure would push the relaxed diaphragm and airways upwards towards the head and thus reduce tension on the airway, perhaps making it more collapsible.

I totally agree with your point in that a belt around the abdomen is not the same as obesity or during pregnancy. I have been asked many times at conferences whether that is what we were trying to achieve. The answer has always been no, we just wanted to look at one particular consequence of central obesity i.e. increased pressure inside the abdomen. It has been shown that pressure inside the abdomen can be has much as 100% greater in an obese person compared to a healthy-weight person. Nevertheless, the increased pressure may have absolutely no influence on diaphragm postion whatsoever. No-one has really studied the effects of increased pressure inside the abdomen on diaphragm position.

So again, we never set out to say that a belt around the abdomen simulates the same feelings as what occurs in obesity or pregnancy.

I promise you this. I guess if you want to know what it feels like to be fat you could always just put a band accross your stomach. Also.....since being fat causes sooooo many other things and changes things like stomach (the organ) size, as well as blood pressure and pulse rate, you are really not getting any usable data in regards to true obesity and OSA. This is only a small part of why I think your experiment is stupid.

Again, I agree with you. But this study didn't focus on correlations. We simply wanted to look at the effect of increased pressure inside the abdomen on upper airway collapsibility. We showed a small change in airway collapsibility when we increased abdominal pressure. How this change happend is anybody's guess. We didn't measure enough things to come up with a definative answer. We can only speculate. Just like earlier studies which looked at the effect of posture on AHI or airway collapsibility without imaging the airway. These authors could only speculate why many (not all) OSA patients have worse OSA when on their back.


Going back to my study, particularly those who think it's bullshit. Here are some questions I have been asked by people who aren't convinced about my study:

Question: I have been asked whether we did show that increased pressure pushed the diaphragm up towards the head

Answer: I said no. We did not measure diaphragm position directly. Current imaging techniques such as ultrasound, CT, MRI etc can be conducted during the day but when a patient is awake but would be very difficult to perform at night when a patient is asleep. There are indirect ways to measure whether the diaphragm has moved but I won't go into any detail. I'm using a different technique in my next study to try and assess movement of a particular region of a diaphragm and to see what happens to this region at sleep onset (when the airway is most vulnerable to collapse) and also preceeding, during and post apnea.

Question: How do I know that increased pressure in the abdomen reduced tension on the upper airway?

Answer: I don't. This can be done in animals but would be unethical to do in humans. I would love to hear if anyone out there knows of a way to assess stretch on the airway in humans. There is some indirect evidence for airway movement in patients undergoing CO2 insufflation into the abdomen during surgery. This pumping of gas into the abdomen increases pressure inside the abdomen. Studies have shown that the carina (where the windwind diverges into two branches) moves closer to the tip of the endotracheal tube (inserted to keep the airway open) following CO2 insufflation i.e. carina moves towards the head. This doesn't prove that this movement of the carina results in loss of airway tension, but it does provide some evidence that tension on the airway may be impacted upon.

Question: How do I know that my increase in airway collapsibility was due to a loss in stretch on the airway?

Answer: Again, I can't prove that. There is some evidence to suggest that edema around the airway increases airway resistance which indicates a reduction in airway size. One study looked at the effect of compressing the legs to push blood to the structures surrounding the airway. They did in fact show tha neck circumference and airway resistance increased when they compressed the legs and speculated that this was due to edema Therefore, something similar may have happened in my study and loss of airway stretch had nothing to do with my findings.

But I will make you an offer I made someone else recently. It will help you to better understand apnea.

I volunteer to hold a pillow over your face 42 times and hour, every hour, while you sleep. I will do this for a month. At the end of that month you can attempt to drive, and hold an intellegent conversation, also....you can try to carry on a relationship or go on a date. Maybe 2 months.
Then you can go on CPAP at a pressure of 14...maybe higher, with a full face mask. I will still put the pillow over your face....but only 4 times an hour, and I will make sure to do it a few extra times every once in a while to simulate a "bad" night.
Then you multiply how shitty you feel by about 100....as many of us have done this for wayyyyyyy longer than a month. While we are at it....you can wear a fat suit for the entire month or two....so you can also see how hard it is to carry it around after sleep deprivation.

I would never admit to knowing what it feels like having OSA, nor the side-effects. I can only read in journals and also from personal accounts from OSA patients about the effects that OSA has on the body and mind.

I am always there to offer a helping hand...I am just giving that way.

And I very much appreciate it

[split_city]

You know what?

STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ON SPLIT_CITY!!!!!!

The man has his opinions, and has tried to stimulate honest discussion. He has been a gentleman throughout being gunned down.

Go ahead and debate his theories, but he's done nothing to deserve the personal attacks.

Thankyou for your support. I'm not here to downgrade OSA patients, nor am I here to make you think that I'm better than you. I'm here to provide you all with some information in regards to what is being studied in relation to OSA. We are on the same team trying to educate ourselves about why the airway collapses in some people and not others

[jennmary]

I OFFERED a perfectly good solution Rabid.....my own simulation I dont understand what was wrong with that offer. He ASKED for reasons why his study was stupid....all I did was answer that request. He hurt someones feelings who I like very much, and have great respect for. So I am sorry if I came on strong....but I would do the same if someone upset any one of my friends. And yes....I consider Jen a friend...not just some girl on the board.

I stoped the attack and put forth an honest effort to answer a question. I then offered a test of my own. Some people might think my test has merit....some may not. But it is my study and I will do what I want.

[split_city]

He hurt someones feelings who I like very much, and have great respect for. So I am sorry if I came on strong....but I would do the same if someone upset any one of my friends. And yes....I consider Jen a friend...not just some girl on the board.

I would still like to know how I hurt Jem. I have apologised for what I believe may have offended her, but am still unclear to what I said. No-one has informed me of my offending comments

I have been offended by personal attacks by people on here, but I haven't replicated the same emotions

I

stoped the attack and put forth an honest effort to answer a question. I then offered a test of my own. Some people might think my test has merit....some may not. But it is my study and I will do what I want.

So is this what I should say? Should I be critical of your study and call it "stupid." No I don't, and I wouldn't.

[jennmary]

It is your study....do what you want. Did I say you shouldnt? No. I simply told you why I thought it was stupid......YOU asked. In fact YOU insisted to know why any of us would dare think your study stupid. I did not ask if or why you thought mine was stupid. I know mine is not thought out very well and lacks a certian finess.....but it was an example, and I stand by it. But if you really want to tell me how stupid my study is then by all means go for it.

You in fact did not apologize to jen....instead you kept on insisting she show you where you offended her....even after she gave up and left. Your apology was dependant on her proving that you had upset her in some way, it was not based on the fact that you did in fact upset her.....for whatever reason.

Regardless, I am taking volunteers for my study. If you decide you like the feelings this study brings on I will start a program and will charge for it....somehow I dont think I will make much money. Although there are some perverts in the world who might get off on such torture.

[linda b]

I'm really hesitant to enter this discussion, but ....

I am a very overweight female with both OSA and COPD. Most of my excess weight is in the abdomen area. If I have too big a meal, as I did tonight, I can DEFINITELY tell a difference in the pressure on my diaphram and, therefore, my breathing becomes more labored. (Perhaps I'm more sensitive to this sensation because of the COPD.) And I realize this may not be the same thing that Split-City is trying to research, but I have also noticed that when I am retaining excess fluid, which can cause a distended or tight abdomen, that my AHI tends to go up. So, it just may be that Split-City's research topic is not so crazy as some of you seem to think.

I, for one, would be very interested in his results. As a matter of fact, I think I'll start keeping a log of AHI results after eating a late dinner and/or when the fluid builds up a little.

In closing, it seems to me that many of you engaged in this particular discussion are really making mountains out of mole hills by pouncing on certain words or phrases that when taken in the grand scheme of the topic are not that problematic. 99% of us on this forum are not doctors nor even medical professionals of any type. Therefore, anything we say can ONLY be an opinion. I spent many a long hour drilling into my children that no one is RIGHT or WRONG when stating an opinion and that whether you like it or not we are all entitled to our own opinions!!

In that spirit, it is my OPINION that Split-City has gone to considerable length to explain what he meant in his original posts that some of you took offense to and whether you agree with his research or not, whether you agree with particular statements of his or not, it is time to agree to disagree and let the subject(s) drop if there is nothing POSITIVE to say. As my Daddy would say, "You've just about beat that poor horse to death!!"

[split_city]

It is your study....do what you want. Did I say you shouldnt? No. I simply told you why I thought it was stupid......YOU asked. In fact YOU insisted to know why any of us would dare think your study stupid.

I asked for feedback, be it negative or positive. If someone said your study was bullshit without giving reasons, wouldn't you ask why?

I never put my study on a pedestal saying "here are my results, prove me wrong." In fact, I know that there are many unanswered questions in regards to my results. An earlier post stated that I didn't believe that "beer belly automatically = OSA." I even provided you with questions I have been asked and the answers I gave these people. I never said to them "these are the results, accept them or move on."

I know mine is not thought out very well and lacks a certian finess.....but it was an example, and I stand by it. But if you really want to tell me how stupid my study is then by all means go for it.

I wouldn't do that. I have no reason to. I don't think it's stupid. There are always ways to improve studies (even mine), but I wouldn't call a study stupid.

You in fact did not apologize to jen....instead you kept on insisting she show you where you offended her....even after she gave up and left.

I didn't get a chance to. Jen stormed off and created a thread which was basically used to attack me.

Your apology was dependant on her proving that you had upset her in some way, it was not based on the fact that you did in fact upset her.....for whatever reason.

All I asked for was a post which I said which made her upset. I apologised for the comments I believed may have been offensive. I assume some of these posts are what caused Jen to get upset in the first place. Jen was making untruthful accusations about me. Will I get an apology for those?

Nevertheless, Jen, If you read this, I am very sorry if I offended you. My intention was not to cause any harm whatsoever. I apologise wholeheartedly.

Regardless, I am taking volunteers for my study. If you decide you like the feelings this study brings on I will start a program and will charge for it....somehow I dont think I will make much money.

How much will you charge?

Although there are some perverts in the world who might get off on such torture.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest

[jennmary]

I never claimed that ANYTHING I said was anything other than my opinion. I have always said...this is just my opinion. An opinion was asked for...I gave one....then I was asked why, and I said why. In my mind this is like comparing an over full water balloon that is ready to pop with a normal water balloon rubber banded in the middle. Yes both have pressure....but in no where near the same way. This is my opinion. I will add that to my signature so no on gets confused. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

I would charge a hundred a night....the same as pretty woman except I dont get to sleep as I am pillow holding all night. I think thats a bargain. I wonder if I could get insurance to pay for it.

[Guest]

I would charge a hundred a night....the same as pretty woman except I dont get to sleep as I am pillow holding all night. I think thats a bargain. I wonder if I could get insurance to pay for it.

How would you convince an ethics committee? I somehow doubt they would be impressed that you are going to suffocate them for short persiods of time

[split_city]

Sorry, bad spelling. Can't correct. Hands tired

[Rabid1]

I OFFERED a perfectly good solution Rabid.....my own simulation I dont understand what was wrong with that offer.

You did NOT offer a perfectly good solution, and you know it. You offered sarcasm, and not very good sarcasm at that.

If you want to debate the science behind SC's theories, go for it, but don't cloud the debate with sarcastic remarks.

Now, do you have anything scientific to offer? I'm sorry to say I do not. Even though I have a degree in biology, I'm still in kindergarden when it comes to SA. I will offer my help and opinions only when I'm reasonably confident in the answer.

Give us YOUR credentials.

[linda b]

Jennmary, if your last post was directed to me, I never said you claimed that ANYTHING was other than your opinion. I'm merely offering MY opinion that no person's opinion can be right or wrong BECAUSE it is an opinion. And I don't think it is appropriate to call another person's opinion "crazy" or "stupid" or any other derogatory word. It is certainly okay to offer countering ideas, but it doesn't have to be done in a negative way to get a point across.

And for what it is worth, I'm not the least bit confused. Please re-read my other post. My comments were not directed to any one individual, but to all who have posted on this thread and to the general inability of some to allow differing ideas and/or opinions to be treated respectfully. My final thought on the subject is -- if the shoe fits, you are welcome to wear it.

Good night (or morning, since it is now after 2:30AM)

[Snoredog]

I think coffee drinkers with large bladders would have the advantage in a pissing contest, but alas, being female, I don't have any aim!
Jen

Au Contraire, my friend. It's BEER that is the key ingredient! Give me enough beer, and I can pee standing up, and not get anything on myself wet!

I did that once, in the woods, thinking I was alone, and was the HIT of the sweat lodge that night! Everyone was so admiring of my skill!

Cheers,
Barbara - Champion Beer Pisser

That reminds me of this old joke I once heard.... this guy walks into the local watering hole bar tender gets him a beer.... after he's had 2 or 3 beers he begins chatting with this ole bar fly sitting next to him. She was a friendly one, she was, she's been there half the day she says to the guy "I bet you a hundred bucks I can pee on the wall higher than you can....the guy thinks a minute...(there is no way this ole bar fly is going to win that one, I'm a guy), so he slaps down his hundred bucks on the bar... she climbs off her stool goes heads over to the wall by the juke box, pulls up her skirt and leaves her mark about 36" off the floor. The guy laughs hehehe this will be easy money, whips it out, goes to aim... ole bar fly says "ah! no hands!!" She collected her hundred bucks