Mea Culpa

[NightHawkeye]

Do you anticipate by thoroughly working through this issue as a collective group that the inherent exploitations and ignorant public perceptions of the medical system will change?

How does anything change, Neversleeps? Pick an analogy; ripples in a pond, shifting sands, etc. For this time and place we may have an opportunity to improve things in small but meaningful ways. That's sufficient.

Regards,
Bill

[OSAGuy]

I am one that has no beef with the medical community. As a matter of fact, I have a great deal of respect for most Drs. I know. Every profession, including mine, has it's share of jerks. Most in the medical community do have the patient's best interest in mind.

I am not going to sit here and tell you how happy I am to have sleep apnea, but I also do not hang my head in shame over it nor do I feel sorry for myself. Having successfully used my APAP for almost four years I realize that for me it is a minor inconvenience since it is easily treateable and I follow the therapy. Apnea is not a life threatening illness as long as it is treated so I really don't see a reason to feel down about it. Since starting therapy I have fealt very good and rested with the exception of last fall when I had surgery and could not exercise regularly. Now that I can exercise again I once again feel fantastic.

Don't get me wrong, as I do not mean to belittle anyone's frustrations over sleep apnea and using a CPAP, as the therapy does take some getting used to (I was also very frustrated and angry at the beginning). My point is that I have a disese that is easily treatable, unlike cancer, heart failure, etc. etc.

MY advice to the "newbies" is to hang in there and be patient and get good advice from your medical provider.

[-SWS]

...So there is a great deal of overlapping in my own views and your views as well, Bill.

. . . resisting the urge to comment prematurely . . .

That's certainly understandable, Bill. Especially since I haven't espoused my own views all that much on this topic.

Is this kind of discourse possible, guys? If not, I will not even bother to open that thread to share my own middle ground credo.

I am willing to be a back seat participant in this discussion if you are willing to take the driver's seat, -SWS. I am fairly certain that I don't have the social acumen to keep from ruffling feathers were I to attempt a more directing role in it.

If I even endeavored such a thread, I would be more than happy to take the driver's seat. I would hope to set a highly collaborative and respectful tone. Bill, if I thought that you and I were incapable of comfortably and very respectfully comparing ideas, then I wouldn't have even proposed this. I'm just not sure that any potentially volatile topic can be discussed on a message board without that topic spiraling out of control. And that gets us to the next comment...

Am I an old idealistic fool?

I hope not.

LOL! My thoughts exactly. Don't know if this topic can be done amicably. When our expectations outstrip humanity's current practices, then we are clearly idealists. However, when our expectations far outstrip humanity's capabilities, then we are idealistic fools. I sure hope I am not an idealistic fool, Bill.

I highly value your opinion, -SWS, and would love to hear it! Do you anticipate by thoroughly working through this issue as a collective group that the inherent exploitations and ignorant public perceptions of the medical system will change? I have my doubts. Then again, I know for a fact I am an old pessimistic fool. (Respectfully pessimistic!)

LOL! Well, you can be pessimistic until you are blue in the feet... Hmmm.... Nevermind!! Seriously, though, what is the point of discussing any interesting but complex topic? One ideal objective is that we might try to learn. We might try to learn more about the topic at hand, but also we might try to learn more about those around us. I really do not want to discuss ideas exclusively with people who think exactly as I do. There is little or no learning involved in that type of pursuit. If people who have at least some contrasting views are kind enough to share those views with me---to courteously coach me about their views and why they think that way----then I am grateful.

Sharing contrasting ideas can be a kind and considerate exercise in: "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"! When we are lucky enough to find people who will extend their contrasting views to us in sincerity and kindness, then the potential for learning is vast. Again, I'm just not sure an open forum is a conducive setting to such idealistic discourse.

[-SWS]

Sleep apnea awareness day is March 8th. If I even start this proposed thread (still seriously debating this, though), it would only be after opening and working on a thread about sleep apnea awareness.

I'm still hoping to work on distributing awareness literature in the medical community in my neck of the woods.

I'm also hoping that grass roots movement about awareness eventually gets off the ground... More later.

[Offerocker]

<......> Seriously, though, what is the point of discussing any interesting but complex topic? One ideal objective is that we might try to learn. We might try to learn more about the topic at hand, but also we might try to learn more about those around us. I really do not want to discuss ideas exclusively with people who think exactly as I do. There is little or no learning involved in that type of pursuit. If people who have at least some contrasting views are kind enough to share those views with me---to courteously coach me about their views and why they think that way----then I am grateful.

Sharing contrasting ideas can be a kind and considerate exercise in: "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"! When we are lucky enough to find people who will extend their contrasting views to us in sincerity and kindness, then the potential for learning is vast. Again, I'm just not sure an open forum is a conducive setting to such idealistic discourse.

I wish I'd said that.

I consider myself an 'idealist' also.
I've come to believe that trait leads to much frustration, but I will not give up on it; couldn't anyway - it's just in the genes.
It's paralled with the pursuit for perfection, which is possible in some things, but not all, especially when humans are the pursued.

[-SWS]

Well, unfortunately, I have received correspondence from several people. They each reflected opinions that the proposed thread would likely be too volatile or otherwise inappropriate.

My apologies to any who were offended by either the manner in which I proposed the thread, or the fact that I proposed it in the first place.

Thread placed on hiatus from my end.

On Edit: Having more to do with mental energy on my part than anything else. I may just search my own soul for more energy while I'm at it!

[NightHawkeye]

Well, unfortunately, I have received correspondence from several people. They each reflected opinions that the proposed thread would likely be too volatile or otherwise inappropriate.

Hmm . . ., fear of the unknown, I suppose. Fear of challenges to the status quo, perhaps. Such a thread should be a win-win situation for all involved, as most fears are baseless. Such a thread should also greatly benefit Johnny and cpaptalk by raising the standard of discussion on this forum further. I'm under no illusion, of course, that such a discussion would be easy.

However, the benefits from such a thread far outweigh the potential risks, IMHO. I hardly think that fallout from the proposed thread could come close to rivaling that which has already occurred many times on this forum, and will likely continue to erupt. I hope that you will reconsider, -SWS.

Would it be possible perhaps to take a baby-step forward toward such a discussion by reviewing some of the opinions you received, -SWS. No need for any identifying information, of course. Perhaps first discussing the fears contained in those opinions could help us establish a framework for going forward with this effort. Forward progress often comes easily after a suitable framework has been constructed. The critical part is constructing the framework.

Regards,
Bill ( . . . submitting post after double-checking to ensure absence of malice, accusations and inflammatory remarks)

[-SWS]

. ., fear of the unknown, I suppose. Fear of challenges to the status quo, perhaps.

Bill, it's more that harmony-oriented personality of mine at play than anything else. Sometimes that facet is a virtue, but all too often it's a limitation. I have no doubts that you and I can rationally discuss issues together very well. I also have no doubts that drbandage and I can rationally discuss issues together very well. And I tend not to fear the status quo itself since my personal views are so often extremely iconoclastic. I've also always been philosophically and even scientifically intrigued by the unknown---much more so than even being afraid of it.

No. Unfortunately, it's that harmony-oriented facet of my own personality that factors in here more than anything else. When message board animosity crops its inevitable head, my own spirit and energy levels fall off dramatically. I'm truly embarrassed to admit that. I'm thick-skinned when it comes to taking attacks on myself. But I feel helplessness and despair when I see others receiving attacks. I can usually ignore those threads. It's no small feat to ignore viscous threads when you happen to be immersed squarely in the middle of them, however.

Maybe I got trigger shy. Perhaps it is possible for such a lengthy and complex social topic to be discussed on an open forum, without negative emotions and underhanded tactics flaring out of control. Hmmm... I just don't know. However, I do know I would absolutely love to rationally work through such an intriguingly complex topic---a topic that I personally think is "emotionally type cast" in multiple ways. I would love to take a "top-down" approach. Perhaps even metaphorically apply of the principals of quantum mechanics, as if they were analogous to various behavioral occurrences that are manifest in just about any vast social endeavor (such as medicine itself). So I will mull this over some more, Bill.

But it's definitely not the content of what was said to me in any emails or private messages. Rather, it's truly a matter of -SWS introspectively questioning whether his energy levels and inner spirit might withstand the quarrelsome possibilities that such a volatile topic brings.

I will definitely give this some more thought over time.

[NightHawkeye]

Rather, it's truly a matter of -SWS introspectively questioning whether his energy levels and inner spirit might withstand the quarrelsome possibilities that such a volatile topic brings.

I think I can relate to your energy level conundrum, -SWS. My own energy level for this discussion has recently reached such a nadir. For me the topic is not so much intellectual curiosity, as you have indicated for yourself, but rather a matter of real-world problems begging for efficient solutions. Perhaps that presents an avenue for discussion . . .

On the other hand, even if we have such a discussion, realistically the best we can hope for is to formulate meager improvments in the advice offered on this forum for newcomers.

But, perhaps that's enough . . .

Regards,
Bill

[krousseau]

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it....Aristotle

[kavanaugh1950]

SWS, thank you, I had no idea march 8th was sleap apnea awareness day! you made me aware. pat

[bookwrm63]

FYI...it's also my birthday!!!!

[SleepGuy]

HAPPY

BIRTHDAY

MARY!!!

[bookwrm63]

LOL...I meant March 8th!!!! But thank you, thank you, thank you!!!