A little disturbed!

[Nenetx2004]

Wader,

You have given some very good advice and I appreciate that. My comment was in reference to advice given to me with no back-up or even a correct reference. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. I am not proclaiming myself to the god to keep everyone safe from themselves. My problem has been that posts have been getting more insulting.

As far as taking offense to my posts, I'm assuming you are talking about the one to Ionizer and now this one. Understand that this is borne out of frustration over things said on the forum. "Tone" is very hard to express in writing short of using emoticons for anyone other than a professional writer (which I am not). I think for the time being I will withdraw from participation on the forum.

Jeanne

[Pohtaytoh]

I'm with you Wader.

The "balls" comment was just my little non-verbal jab at the "Guests" offense at the occasional humor posted on the forum.

I personally feel that Guests should not be able to post to any site where they are unwilling to provide at least their names and e-mail addresses.

Maybe this is flame bait, if so I hope you "guests" are enjoying yourselves. But this is the just type of bellyaching and whining that gets the administrators of these very helpful and very much appreciated boards to shut them down.

If you are the type of person who, because you are either "too excited" or too lazy or whatever other myriad reasons, disregards disclaimers (which of course had to be put there to point out to those too slow to figure out they might want to double check something before going off on their own) it wouldn't matter that the person makes the disclaimer (which most do) right in their posts.

Please take note of the name of this website: CPAPTalk.com A forum for all things CPAP. Dictionary.com defines forum as: "A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation." It also defines experts as: "Having, involving, or demonstrating great skill, dexterity, or knowledge as the result of experience or training."

A reasonable person should be able to draw from those definitions that this is a public conversation among people who have knowledge of CPAP through significant experience or training. No where does it say anything about Free Medical Advice from Real Life Doctors. You should be wary of ANY thing you read on the internet.

So, to the first guest. If you are so dissatisfied with what you read or see here, I suggest you take your own advice:

five words, "Get a Life!" and "Grow up!"

Rod (my real name)

[Guest]

I did not use my name for precisely the reason someone mentioned, plus the fact that 9 times out of ten when I sign in it shows me as a guest anyway. I don't have time for games. I have been flamed here for asking a simple question! I am not flaming any of you, I was stating my opinion about the way the direction of the board seems to be going. It's fine to give suggestions, but I want FACTS that I can use. When I first joined, this seemed like a supportive board, but I don't see that now except for a few people. Have fun because I just don't see the value of it anymore.

[Mikesus]

I did not use my name for precisely the reason someone mentioned, plus the fact that 9 times out of ten when I sign in it shows me as a guest anyway. I don't have time for games.

Maybe the internet is not for you.

I have been flamed here for asking a simple question! I am not flaming any of you, I was stating my opinion about the way the direction of the board seems to be going.

Actually you were, and we DID take offense.

It's fine to give suggestions, but I want FACTS that I can use.

If you can't use the info here, you might try buying an encyclopedia... Couse I don't know if there are any facts in there you could use either.

When I first joined, this seemed like a supportive board, but I don't see that now except for a few people. Have fun because I just don't see the value of it anymore

Thanks for stopping by!! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

If you REALLY had anything noncritical and condescending to say, you could have at LEAST not hid behind guest. Yeah, that's right you didn't have time for games...

[-SWS]

No flame bait here guys. Rather than summarily dismiss that which has been said on either side of this discussion, I would personally like to evaluate each word that has been said----toward truths that might improve this board. Below are my thoughts on some of what has been said in this discussion. I don't expect anyone here to agree with me 100%, but I do hope that anyone reading this simply takes my thoughts as being offered in earnestness:

Revered Experts or Veterans: I cringe every time someone asks me a question as if I were an expert---or refers to me as if I were an expert. Relative to most brand new CPAP patients here, I am an expert by virtue of having a several year head start toward learning about our SDB condition. The reason I cringe is because I know more than anyone here can possibly know that I am absolutely guaranteed to get certain facts and concepts wrong---on a reoccuring basis. I don't think anyone here should consider anyone else here as a true expert. Take our information as if it stands to be wrong (and it will be wrong at times) and you have a sound basis for researching or verifying any information----either researching/verifying with your doctor and/or via off-line personal research. Each reader must bear the responsibility of verifying and assimilating whatever information they find here.

Language and Tone: My preference is to have plenty of humor here, but I personally don't care for humor that is at anyone's expense---whether that be an entire gender, sexual orientation, political persuasion, national origin, or even any individual here/elsewhere. Humor is great, but when others must emotionally or otherwise pay the price for that humor, then much nobler objectives than simple humor have been subverted in my opinion. I am not a politically coreect person, BTW. I simply don't like seeing anyone insulted or hurt.

Social Dynamics: I have always deplored being a leader and detested being a follower. What does that make me? I guess it makes me the solitary individual I am in real life. I despise social dynamics that engender exclusion of others. I carry an ideal in my heart that each soul should be revered and listened to. I would like to see this board honor and respect opposing opinions toward mutual or collective understandings of truths and falsehoods----relative to our treatment and our lives which now share a common thread. I never understood why the adversarial process of debate must entail negative emotions. Why not respectful comparisions of contrasting ideas versus verbal fighting? This board should be thought of as a "show and tell" place for ideas and contended facts----not a place where others feel they will encounter verbal strife. Opposing ideas should be allowed to comfortably mingle with status quo ideas in my opinion. The history of humanity is replete with examples of status quo ideas containing nothing but utter foolishness and nonsense. Let's not fall victim to the group dynamic Irving Janis defines as "Group Think".

I honestly don't think the original guest brought his/her opinions here as bait for a flame war. Rather than having a knee-jerk reaction and squashing guest's opinions, let's first look to see if there are any worthwhile insights about what that poster felt compelled to say. It is human to assume an adversarial stance against perceived opposition----be it physical opposition, verbal, or otherwise. That is a rudimentary response that is unfortunately encoded in our genes. However, it is also human to collaborate as we reach for new ideas and grow. That is a much less rudimentary trait that is also encoded in our genes. Let's attempt to bring our own enlightened traits to this board as we learn and share.

[Hugh Jass]

At some point you need to trust your dr. & the people who DO have expertise in their field.

Doctors are often more ignorant than the patient. Why ? Because the patient often researches his/her condition and invests the time into learning such things as symptoms and appropriate treatment. Most MD's fall back on their outdated experience and practices. Let's be honest, an MD that graduated 30 years ago requires no schooling to update his/her skills. Doctors know a little about everything. They don't know everything like they want you to believe.

To put it in perspective, most other professionals are required to take new courses every so often to ensure they stay up to date with new technologies and practices. If they don't they can lose their accreditation. Once a Doctor has his/her degree they are not required to upgrade their skills. They get a lot of their information from deceptive drug companies.

I had to tell my doctor I had sleep apnea, and a videotape in my pocket to prove it, before he sent me to a sleep MD. All he wanted to do was continue pumping me full of drugs that make apnea worse. And if they didn't work, well take more !

I had a friend who is on a blood thinner and a doctor in an ER told her it was ok to take aspirin for pain. (Mixing the two can cause a heart attack or stroke).

I had another friend who complained about headaches and dizziness. Doctor said it was stress. Friend said, nothing in my life has changed, and I don't feel stressed. Doctor said, well sometimes you are stressed and don't know it. Friend said, I don't beleive it to be stress. Two months later his retina tore and went blind an one eye. Thankfully it was repairable and now he feels fine.

My repeated experience with doctors has led me to the following conclusion:

Doctors are idiots unless they have something they can measure or something is apparently wrong with you, i.e. a metal spike in your face.

So your suggestion to put our health into the hands of the medically inept is more dangerous than the danger you claim is found here within this group.

If you don't like what this group offers, here's a suggestion - Don't visit the site !

[Liam1965]

I have to disagree in the highest degrees possible with regard to "just trusting your doctor". For many years, that's how it was done. Doctors were considered gods among men, and their word was not to be questioned.

Doctors are human beings. They make mistakes. We all do. I'm a "computer expert". People ask me questions sometimes, and I try to give them the benefit of my expertise. Does it mean I'm never wrong, or that I might not have missed some piece of their needs? No. I do my best to help people who ask me computer questions, but trust me, a user who refuses to gain ANY information on their own about how something is done is not going to be helped by my advice... they may not even understand it.

The same is true of any field of human endeavor. We go to the doctor because they have had training we have not had, and we can make use of that expertise, but that training doesn't make them infallible, and while they have a great deal of general information, they lack the very SPECIFIC information about YOUR OWN BODY that you alone have. It takes a partnership between a good doctor and the patient to achieve proper results.

And that means that you have to be willing to recognize that your doctor doesn't know everything, and what works for most of his patients may not work for you. I don't think I've seen anyone on here say you should skip going to your doctor entirely. What I've seen is people posting their experiences that didn't jive with what the doctor said, and other people posting "Wow, what your doctor said is nothing like what my doctor said".

There's an old expression "Doctors differ and patients die". They aren't perfect, and setting them up to never be questioned just begs to not receive the treatment you want or need.

And I agree with waders comment about balls. I post here with my real name every day. It's a nickname for my full name, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Liam is the last four letters of William. You may like what I have to say, you may not, but I have an e-mail address to which you can respond if you really don't like what I said. If you want more information. I'm not hiding.

The excuse I hear a lot when people hide behind "guest" is "I know my opinion is unpopular, and I don't want to have to deal with the repercussions" (or words to that effect). Well guess what: When your opinion is about how this board should go, if it's unpopular than the rules of democracy say that YOU are the one who is wrong, not everyone else on the board.

If you don't like me, or something I say, e-mail me. And do me the same courtesy of allowing me to e-mail you if I find your post inflammatory, sophomoric, or just plain incorrect.

Liam.

[Liam1965]

Oh, and with regard to SWS and Rested Gal and some of the other folks' "expert" status, no, they're not doctors, and they're happy to say so.

But they have more experience than a lot of us do, and more information. The root of the word "expert" is the same root as that of "experience".

When I tell someone they should pay attention to Rested Gal or SWS or anyone else, it's because in my own experience, the things they say tend to carry good information, and have a high corelation with reality. Does it mean they're never wrong? Certainly not. See above, what I said about doctors. But it becomes clear if you listen to them (and others, those are just the two that came to mind first) that they've been through a lot with regard to apnea, and have a lot of good wisdom to dispense.

Liam, sick of the direction this board has taken, when people (or maybe one person with too little real life to occupy them) feel the need to log in as "guest" and slam a batch of nice people who are just trying to cope with a disease, and help each other cope.

[lifesucks]

Advice given to me by a wise relative once:

Doctors, particulary specialists, diagnose what they know; in fact, they often only look for what they know and understand to be true. So, in a simple, single-fault analysis of a medical issue, they can usually come to the right conclusion. Add a second variable to the equation, though, and they will often have problems finding the light switch on the way out of the room.

Put another way, if doctors designed space probes, and they believed the moon to made of cheese, they would design a probe that could determine what type of cheese. Now, when the probe sends back telemetry that doesn't find any cheese, they will attribute the data to sensor failure on the probe and try to send another one.

I respect doctors; heck, I wouldn't be alive today without them. However, I once had absolute trust for a doctor's judgment only to find years later that he had started me into a death-spiral of ever-increasing medication; wonder they didn't find me dead sitting on the toilet like Elvis with a pill bottle in my hand.

As the patient, YOU have the right, no, the responsibility to question every decision that the doctor makes. YOU have to coordinate your own care amongst the sea of supposed specialists out there, and YOU need to pursue the treatment protocol that you are most comfortable with. If you and your doctor(s) cannot come to common ground on what this might be, then you either need to re-examine your own motivations --or-- find another set of doctors. But beware, like consultants, if you look long enough, you can ALWAYS find a doctor who agrees with you; that doesn't make them right. Even the best doctor in the world has leaky plumbing, crying child, flat tire on their car, and countless other things on their mind while they are prescribing a treatment protocol for something that has a significant impact on your quality of life.

-lifesucks (a.k.a. Bullwinkle) - Bitter? What makes you think that?

[wading thru the muck!]

-SWS said:
"I honestly don't think the original guest brought his/her opinions here as bait for a flame war."

I have to disagree with you here. Otherwise the "guest" would have not concealed his/her identity.

-SWS said:
"This board should be thought of as a "show and tell" place for ideas and contended facts----not a place where others feel they will encounter verbal strife."

I agree, that's why I think the accusatory tone of the original post was not called for. Remarks targeted at falsely undermining the integrity of posters on this forum need to be pointed out for what they are. This type of comment left unchallenged does not contribute to any greater good or
understanding.


-SWS said:
"It is human to assume an adversarial stance against perceived opposition----be it physical opposition, verbal, or otherwise. That is a rudimentary response that is unfortunately encoded in our genes."

Utilizing a large vocabulary does not change the fact that you have violated one of your own tenets by "squashing" MY opinion by claiming it was driven by some less advanced human tendency. The goals you seek are noble, but in the "give and take" of this forum, I have learned more about the individuals on it during these heated discussions than during any others. This has been of immense value to me in sorting out whose advice I trust and whose do I do not.

-SWS, thanks for you contribution. It has done a lot to further this discussion in a rational way. These are topics germaine to our discussions here on the forum. Where they fail, is by starting out as a littany of unfounded accusations as we have in this case.

[mommaw]

Allright everybody, lets all put our masks on, now breath........ahhhhhhhhhh, don't you all feel better now!

I have to defend this forum from a newbie standpoint, having been here a short time. I have found so much information on here that is helpful and I have read some that I did not choose to take too seriously. That is whats called "using your brain". If I am weary about a suggested pratice, then I don't do it. Just that simple. That doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

While I do agree that everyone has an opinion and the right to express it, it does appear that when a "guest" has a differing opinion of what has been stated here, their post tends to be accusatory and defensive. It's as if they feel the need to attack. So human nature is, when attacked-strike back. Maybe we all should watch our tone when posting and try to remember that we are all just sharing this earth for awhile.


Gilda

[-SWS]

-SWS said:
"It is human to assume an adversarial stance against perceived opposition----be it physical opposition, verbal, or otherwise. That is a rudimentary response that is unfortunately encoded in our genes."

Utilizing a large vocabulary does not change the fact that you have violated one of your own tenets by "squashing" MY opinion by claiming it was driven by some less advanced human tendency.

What constitutes an adversarial "idea squash" versus a "show and tell" style of comparing similar and contrasting ideas, Wader? I perceive a "squash" to be an attempt to quell opposing ideas. By contrast a comparison of contrasting ideas entails that some ideas will necessarily contrast for purposes of making a potentially valuable comparison or discovery. If I was attempting to shut opposing views down, I would not have started my own post by saying: "I don't expect anyone here to agree with me 100%, but I do hope that anyone reading this simply takes my thoughts as being offered in earnestness.".

The statement of mine about which human traits I happen to think are more or less rudimentary is not a statement about Wader. It is a statement about humanity that I earnestly believe to be true. If I didn't believe that statement, and I had intended it to insult Wader or anyone else, then that truly would have been "squashing" opposing ideas or communication techniques. However, the fact that I have thought long and hard about humanity's shortcomings and presented one of those views here is really, truly an example of me coming here to present potentially opposing ideas rather than coming here to "squash" anyone's ideas or style.

The difference between "squashing" opposing ideas versus respectfully presenting contrasting ideas lies in motives, objectives, and manner of presentation in my opinion. Yes I do believe humanity foolishly spends too much of its time squabbling versus collaborating. It is the curse of our species that we spend too much time trying to obliterate each other with weapons or words---or anything in between. Comparison of contrasting ideas can be a collaborative pursuit versus an adversarial one. Unfortunately as long as the two exist in our species, perception will necessarily blur between these two according to personal paradigm---hence that emotionally-loaded adversarial response to opposing ideas that seems inevitable here and everywhere else in the world. This is not a good characteristic for a species with the ability to annihilate the world many times over in my opinion. Again, I do not expect many or most to see the world or humanity exactly as I do. I admit I am an oddity.

The above words are but one man's opinion in a sea of countless ideas... Words can be weapons, but mine are never intended to be so. When they come off that way I am truly disappointed in my own failure to express myself adequately.

[Zees Pleez]

I am going to go a little against the grain here to say I can understand having some privacy. If you PIM me, I will read it and probably answer. But I guard my actual identity and email adress a little more closely. If I had no choice, I would disclose it in order to join and I would still participate. But I like having the choice. Not because I want to hide behind a Guest identity, but because some people do go a little far when they don't like what you have to say. I use an alias here but will use it consistently for however long I participate. I think that the forum owner is well within their rights to ask for more info so that they can take action if warranted and I don't like the idea of Guest postings. But I find nothing wrong with some privacy.

[Liam1965]

True, I agree with you, Zees. Your actual name, whether it's "Steve" or "Joe" or "Horace" or whatever really doesn't mean all that much to me.

However, your consistent posting as "Zees Pleez" helps me to know who I'm talking to. And again, if someone logs in as "guest" we can't even hit the "PM" button and send them a private message on CPAPTALK.

I understand privacy issues, I've dealt with my share of internet stalkers in my time (I had one woman about 2 years ago absolutely convinced that we were soulmates and destined to marry. OK, so Janet was right on that one, but... No, seriously, I was most glad that this woman didn't have enough information to track me down at home.)

But let's face it, whether you know that Wading Thru the Muck's real name is "Atlas" or not (OK, it isn't, but...) doesn't change that you know who you're talking to when he posts. When "Guest" posts, it could be just about anyone, and often is.

Liam, privacy? What's this privacy I keep hearing about?

[Original Guest]

Original Guest, here. If you don't remember, I was the one that had a tit-for-tat (can we say that???) with Liam over a week ago. We have since came to mutual and respectful middle-ground.

I just wanted to post this so that people don't get the impression that one guest is all the same.