The underlying causes of sleep apnea

[Julie]

"Only I know when it all started...".

But my point was that you became aware of it when you did, which does not mean you didn't have it prior to then. It just doesn't.

[tiredandscared]

"Only I know when it all started...".

But my point was that you became aware of it when you did, which does not mean you didn't have it prior to then. It just doesn't.

I became aware of it a few days after onset. I woke up groggy for a couple of days in 23-25 january. I started noticing that my sleep wasn't refreshing at all and that my cognitive performance just plummeted, thoughts became much shallower, and I began having issues with speech(tip of the tongue syndrome, grammatically incorrect sentences, unfinished sentences in writing). I also became drowsier(sometimes fall asleep in the evening on the computer or watching tv). I usually do jigsaw puzzles and sudoku on my free time. My performance on them went into the toilet, short-term memory closely following. It didn't start 2014, it didn't start 2013(I was in the best shape and mental condition my entire life). It started somewhere in the end of january this year after gaining weight. I'm a cerebral and vigilant person, I used to write articles on history and be involved in research of considerable depth, before this thing knocked me out. So I tend to notice if things go awry. When things tend to go bad, I want to know why. I'm not the type of person who sits and waits and forgets about something major like that, or puts it down to some transient temporary issues. I guess thats makes me high strung, but that's the way i am.

I mean from what i recollect of the times before onset and the time after. And no, I hadn't had vague/ambiguous issues with my sleep all my life, that later became full blown, making me start notice. My brain used to be sharp and my verbal ability was immensely better than it is today. I have to edit my posts like 2-3 times, before they're even passable.

Does that convincingly satisfy everyone, that I didn't have sleep apnea for years and decades prior to me noticing? Can we stop derailing this topic and get back to original point of this discussion.

[Therapist]

tiredandscared

Go to the mirror and count your teeth. If you have 32 teeth that are straight, not crowded and never required braces, then your theory about your case will have some credence.

I dont have any palate abnormalities, no crooked teeth, no overly short jaw, no bite issues. Its not a theory if its experienced.

But you don't have 32 fully erupted teeth. 32 fully erupted teeth is the norm.

Since you did not address that part of my post, I suspect you are starting to be sneaky in order to maintain your argument.

[Sir NoddinOff]

A very interesting discussion. I don't have anything to add (or muddy up the waters with) but it's nice to see some people thinking about the topic of nerve damage.

[tiredandscared]

tiredandscared

Go to the mirror and count your teeth. If you have 32 teeth that are straight, not crowded and never required braces, then your theory about your case will have some credence.

I dont have any palate abnormalities, no crooked teeth, no overly short jaw, no bite issues. Its not a theory if its experienced.

But you don't have 32 fully erupted teeth. 32 fully erupted teeth is the norm.

Since you did not address that part of my post, I suspect you are starting to be sneaky in order to maintain your argument.

You're seriously flying of the handle and being suspicious and paranoid over something trivial. Yes i have 32 teeth, all save for one erupting. And what value do I have in maintaining an argument? Do I look like i'm selling snake oil?

[Lazer1234]

"Only I know when it all started...".

But my point was that you became aware of it when you did, which does not mean you didn't have it prior to then. It just doesn't.

I became aware of it a few days after onset. I woke up groggy for a couple of days in 23-25 january. I started noticing that my sleep wasn't refreshing at all and that my cognitive performance just plummeted, thoughts became much shallower, and I began having issues with speech(tip of the tongue syndrome, grammatically incorrect sentences, unfinished sentences in writing). I also became drowsier(sometimes fall asleep in the evening on the computer or watching tv). I usually do jigsaw puzzles and sudoku on my free time. My performance on them went into the toilet, short-term memory closely following. It didn't start 2014, it didn't start 2013(I was in the best shape and mental condition my entire life). It started somewhere in the end of january this year after gaining weight. I'm a cerebral and vigilant person, I used to write articles on history and be involved in research of considerable depth, before this thing knocked me out. So I tend to notice if things go awry. When things tend to go bad, I want to know why. I'm not the type of person who sits and waits and forgets about something major like that, or puts it down to some transient temporary issues. I guess thats makes me high strung, but that's the way i am.

I mean from what i recollect of the times before onset and the time after. And no, I hadn't had vague/ambiguous issues with my sleep all my life, that later became full blown, making me start notice. My brain used to be sharp and my verbal ability was immensely better than it is today. I have to edit my posts like 2-3 times, before they're even passable.

Does that convincingly satisfy everyone, that I didn't have sleep apnea for years and decades prior to me noticing? Can we stop derailing this topic and get back to original point of this discussion.

I think you have got an infection that damaged nerves and made it to the brain through the blood / brain barrier. Perhaps Borrelia? Typical symptoms.
Had any tick or insect bite?

[Therapist]

Yes i have 32 teeth, all save for one erupting.

"32 save one" is 31. Short of the norm because your jaw never fully developed.

Do I look like i'm selling snake oil?

How would I know? You never put up an avatar.

[tiredandscared]

Yes i have 32 teeth, all save for one erupting.

"32 save one" is 31. Short of the norm because your jaw never fully developed.

So by your account, 40-50% of all young adults today should have SDB, because a lot of people don't develop all their molars/wisdom teeth fully. Some don't even develop molars, or are born without them. If that was the case, diagnoses of SDB and sleep disturbances would be soaring.

Do I look like i'm selling snake oil?

How would I know? You never put up an avatar.[/quote]
It's a rhetorical question. I have nothing to gain, by convincing you of my situation and story. You can believe me or not. It's up to you. Frankly it gets tiresome having to argue my own state, set of circumstances with someone who hasn't even meet me, much less doesn't live with me on a day to day basis. Just because they're dead-set on that every single person with SDB, got it the same way. I'm sorry but that's not reality, and it doesn't check out with the clinical experiences of the medical establishment. There are like at least 10 different mechanisms, predisposing comorbid conditions, that don't just involve a hereditary narrow airway or a poorly developed jaw, which can cause you to permanently or temporarily develop sleep apnea. People seem to think that just because a lot of people they've came in contact with, developed it as a consequence of having a narrow airway or a jaw deformity, it must mean that it's a law set in stone. That is the most inane and narrow-minded reasoning regarding heath-issues, I've ever encountered.

[zoocrewphoto]

Yes i have 32 teeth, all save for one erupting.

"32 save one" is 31. Short of the norm because your jaw never fully developed.

So by your account, 40-50% of all young adults today should have SDB, because a lot of people don't develop all their molars/wisdom teeth fully. Some don't even develop molars. If that was the case, SDB and sleep disturbances would be soaring.

Do I look like i'm selling snake oil?

How would I know? You never put up an avatar.

It's a rhetorical question. I have nothing to gain, by convincing you of my situation and story. You can believe me or not. It's up to you. Frankly it gets tiresome having to argue my own state, set of circumstances with someone who hasn't even meet me, much less doesn't live with me on a day to day basis. Just because they're dead-set on that every single person with SDB, got it the same way. I'm sorry but that's not reality, and it doesn't check out with the clinical experiences of the medical establishment. There are like at least 10 different mechanisms, predisposing comorbid conditions, that don't just involve a hereditary narrow airway or a poorly developed jaw, which can cause you to permanently or temporarily develop sleep apnea. People seem to think that just because a lot of people they've came in contact with, developed it as a consequence of having a narrow airway or a jaw deformity, it must mean that it's a law set in stone. That is the most inane and narrow-minded reasoning regarding heath-issues, I've ever encountered.[/quote]


You seem to think we are narrow minded, but we see you promoting the same old weight causes cpap. This is not only wrong, but it causes a lot of people to avoid cpap treatment, or many others to have false expectations.

You are also under the impression that sleep apnea can suddenly start up like catching the flu. That you can not have it one day, and suddenly have noticeable symptoms the next day, out of the blue. This is not accurate at all, and while we may never convince you, we don't want a bunch of newbies later on to read this and see it go unchallenged. Most of us have experienced the slow decline that is so slow that we really don't know when it started. Thinking back, we realize it was going on for quite awhile. But even then, we don't realize it is as bad as it is until we start treatment and start improving. If you had asked me the day before my sleep study, I would have told you I feel pretty good. A little tired, but that's art of getting older, right? I sleep well, only get up a couple times a night, and I have always had more trips to the bathroom than other people. Sleep straight through all night? I didn't even do that in high school. I sleep pretty well. My only downsides are not enough time in bed, and I snore. I only bothered to get diagnosed and treated as I learned that it was probably the cause of my high blood pressure. Had I not known that, I would have continued along, blissfully unaware that I had an serious problems with my sleep. My diagnosis? Severe. And it didn't happen overnight.

I don't know why you think you can suddenly come down with sleep apnea, but I suspect yo believe it can also be suddenly cured. And that is wishful thinking. Your posts seem to be full of denial. We see it all the time, no surprise. It's the same concept as young & dumb. As older adults, we realize how much we didn't know when we were teenagers, and in college. But back then, it seemed like we knew it all. There is no way to convince those younger than us that they will eventually look back and see the same thing.

[tiredandscared]

You seem to think we are narrow minded, but we see you promoting the same old weight causes cpap. This is not only wrong, but it causes a lot of people to avoid cpap treatment, or many others to have false expectations.

You are also under the impression that sleep apnea can suddenly start up like catching the flu. That you can not have it one day, and suddenly have noticeable symptoms the next day, out of the blue. This is not accurate at all, and while we may never convince you, we don't want a bunch of newbies later on to read this and see it go unchallenged. Most of us have experienced the slow decline that is so slow that we really don't know when it started. Thinking back, we realize it was going on for quite awhile. But even then, we don't realize it is as bad as it is until we start treatment and start improving. If you had asked me the day before my sleep study, I would have told you I feel pretty good. A little tired, but that's art of getting older, right? I sleep well, only get up a couple times a night, and I have always had more trips to the bathroom than other people. Sleep straight through all night? I didn't even do that in high school. I sleep pretty well. My only downsides are not enough time in bed, and I snore. I only bothered to get diagnosed and treated as I learned that it was probably the cause of my high blood pressure. Had I not known that, I would have continued along, blissfully unaware that I had an serious problems with my sleep. My diagnosis? Severe. And it didn't happen overnight.

I don't know why you think you can suddenly come down with sleep apnea, but I suspect yo believe it can also be suddenly cured. And that is wishful thinking. Your posts seem to be full of denial. We see it all the time, no surprise. It's the same concept as young & dumb. As older adults, we realize how much we didn't know when we were teenagers, and in college. But back then, it seemed like we knew it all. There is no way to convince those younger than us that they will eventually look back and see the same thing.

I wrote a rebuttal, but my brain just aches sitting next to my computer, and somehow the cpaptalk went awry and cleaned my reply.

anyway here is the research that backs my idea up:

At the 3-mo visit, the actual mean total AHI was 6.5 events/h in the intervention group and 7.9 events/h in the control group, (P = 0.181), and 57% (20/35) of patients in the intervention group and 33% (12/36) of patients in the control group were objectively cured (AHI < 5; P = 0.058, Fisher's exact test). At the 1-y visit, the actual mean total AHI was 6.0 in the intervention group and 9.3 in the control group, (P = 0.06), and 63% (22/35) of patients in the intervention group and 36% (13/36) of patients in the control group were objectively cured (P = 0.033). At the 2-y visit, the actual mean total AHI was 5.4 in the intervention group and 9.1 for the control group (P = 0.038), and the mild OSA had been objectively cured in 57% (20/35) of patients in the intervention group and in 31% (11/36) of patients in the control group (P = 0.032). Moreover, there was a statistically significant difference in the mean change in total AHI between the study groups at the 2-y follow-up (Table 3). The baseline BMI did not have any effect on the effectiveness of the lifestyle intervention

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/4/688.full#T3

[Sleep2Die4]

So by your account, 40-50% of all young adults today should have SDB, because a lot of people don't develop all their molars/wisdom teeth fully. Some don't even develop molars, or are born without them. If that was the case, diagnoses of SDB and sleep disturbances would be soaring.

I'll tell you this and then you can do the research.

When I started out with CPAP about 15 years ago, it was common to read that 1 to 2% of men had sleep apnea. Over time this changed to 2 to 4% have sleep apnea and they decided about half that amount of women had sleep apnea.

Later the numbers went to 4 to 6% of men have sleep apnea. Then it was up to 10%. Later it became 20%.

Now the latest I saw was that 53% of men over the age of 50 have sleep apnea. And they certainly did not get it when they passed 50 - it was there for a long time until it finally progressed to a crisis in their lives and they saw a doctor about it.

So "soaring"? YES!

[Sleep2Die4]

tiredandscared

The way you are quoting posts, I can no longer tell who is writing what. You need to be more careful in what you are posting.

[tiredandscared]

So by your account, 40-50% of all young adults today should have SDB, because a lot of people don't develop all their molars/wisdom teeth fully. Some don't even develop molars, or are born without them. If that was the case, diagnoses of SDB and sleep disturbances would be soaring.

I'll tell you this and then you can do the research.

When I started out with CPAP about 15 years ago, it was common to read that 1 to 2% of men had sleep apnea. Over time this changed to 2 to 4% have sleep apnea and they decided about half that amount of women had sleep apnea.

Later the numbers went to 4 to 6% of men have sleep apnea. Then it was up to 10%. Later it became 20%.

Now the latest I saw was that 53% of men over the age of 50 have sleep apnea. And they certainly did not get it when they passed 50 - it was there for a long time until it finally progressed to a crisis in their lives and they saw a doctor about it.

So "soaring"? YES!

They say that half the people over 50 have "Mild" sleep apnea or borderline sleep apnea. But that doesn't apply to my demograph. I'd say less than 10% of people between 18-30 have sleep apnea. Can you imagine how bad people's test scores and academic performance would be if most had sleep apnea? Sleep apnea has basically put me in a learning disabled condition. I can barely do math, and my working memory is shot.

Anyway in my case the sleep apnea is relatively mild. I only get problems if i sleep supine during rem sleep. Which will cause an AHI that dips int 87-86, briefly(8 seconds). If i sleep in a poor position, i'll get dips into 90-89(this happens when I sleep on the floor). If I lost 20 pounds, the problem would likely go away entirely.

[Julie]

I would say that the low score for young people is likely because -

Their youth and otherwise good health makes it hard to see OSA as a problem at all... so many without OSA sleep in, so many work out physically and get tired, then possibly eat too much or eat too much without ever working out, but both may gain a little weight, whether or not the OSA provoked it.

When young people see doctors, the doctors are very unlikely to tell them they need sleep studies for apnea, but suggest alternative ways to 'get in shape', practice better sleep habits, etc. etc., not thinking about apnea at all.

Young people tell themselves they're tired because of life, sports, work, new babies, bad diet habits, etc. etc. and are completely ignorant of apnea (or can't relate even if their parents might have it).

If one day all people are tested from a very young age for apnea, I bet their percentages would be a lot higher.

[tiredandscared]

I would say that the low score for young people is likely because -

Their youth and otherwise good health makes it hard to see OSA as a problem at all... so many without OSA sleep in, so many work out physically and get tired, then possibly eat too much or eat too much without ever working out, but both may gain a little weight, whether or not the OSA provoked it.

When young people see doctors, the doctors are very unlikely to tell them they need sleep studies for apnea, but suggest alternative ways to 'get in shape', practice better sleep habits, etc. etc., not thinking about apnea at all.

Young people tell themselves they're tired because of life, sports, work, new babies, bad diet habits, etc. etc. and are completely ignorant of apnea (or can't relate even if their parents might have it).

If one day all people are tested from a very young age for apnea, I bet their percentages would be a lot higher.

Highly unlikely.. it might be mistaken for depression(one of the "go-to diagnosis" for incompetent doctors who don't want investigate further) or insomnia. But go unnoticed? I doubt it. Your IQ plummets, at best people will assume you have some form of Attention deficit disorder, unless you're highly gifted and somehow compensate with cognitive reserve.