Non-linear, fractal nature of the cardiopulmonary system

A regular, steady sinusoidal heartbeat is actually an indicator of a diseased heart: http://www.siam.org/pdf/news/353.pdfSeems like healthy breathing should be non-linear as well. Is this commonly acknowledged and implemented by sleep docs yet?

I've been being treated for "complex apnea" for the last two weeks and suspect that trying to force someone with a healthy heart with to breath in a linear, regular sinusoidal rythym on a fancy "non-invasive ventilator" machine may be well intentioned but not therapeutic. Tried googling but couldn't find anything relevant.

It's becoming increasingly clear of late that all natural systems are fractal in every respect, especially living systems.

Just wondering if this knowledge is typically incorporated into sleep data analysis and therapeutic VPAP ASV algorithms. "Fractal health" could be more important than linear regularity of respiration, as long as oxygen saturation levels are not dropping too low.

Not a doc here, but suspect there may be a not uncommon disconnect here with practitioners of sleep medicine.

Anybody?

It is a heck of a lot better then NOT breathing however.

BlackSpinner wrote:It is a heck of a lot better then NOT breathing however.

Amen BlackSpinner. I am absolutely thrilled with the results of my therapy--it has truly changed my life, and even with the unpleasantness of the hose and mask, I will certainly continue using the machine for the rest of my life. But you have to be proactive. The "industry" seems on the whole to be pretty dispassionate about advancing the science and more interested in compliance in order to turn over insurance plan coin with minimal data analysis and patient feedback.

Not to say the entire industry, but it's clearly an issue.

A lot of man-made systems assume linearity and shed chaos (in the sense of feed-back loops), when in fact in nature there are not too many straight lines and most everything "now" is dependent on something that came "before". You are correct and these machines, I suppose ventilators in particular, which I know nothing about, come with the same pack of assumptions. I deal a lot in on-linear systems with feed back loops (besides my own body and apnea) as a profession and there is value to be delivered, business to be made, making improvements over simplistic linear systems. On the other hand, there is simplicity in linearity, and chaos can get out of hand without the proper damping, and in our litigious American society, even as technologically advanced as we are, equipment designers and manufacturers, particularly in medical equipment, stick to the safety of simplicity.

kosmonot wrote:But you have to be proactive. The "industry" seems on the whole to be pretty dispassionate about advancing the science and more interested in compliance in order to turn over insurance plan coin with minimal data analysis and patient feedback.

Not to say the entire industry, but it's clearly an issue.

RUFKM?

Ary Goldberger's part of the BI Deaconess team that included Gilmartin, Daly, Mietus and Thomas that invented Heart Rate Variability and Complex Sleep-Disordered Breathing:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/515202

and brought CompSAS into the forefront of Sleep Medicine. Everybody knows N-LCPF.

The answer is B. It's always B.

Further, analysis of Heart Rate Variability may be used to differentiate the various types of sleep-disordered breathing.

From the classic article:



Phenotyping sleep-disordered breathing with cardiopulmonary coupling analysis. All graphs are from the low-frequency coupled zone. Rule: Single peak narrow band coupling = complex/central disease; multiple peaks broad band coupling = obstructive disease. Above left, short-cycle periodic breathing at altitude. Above right, long-cycle periodic breathing in congestive heart failure. Below left, classic obstructive sleep apnea. Below right, complex obstructive disease. Note the restricted range of oscillating frequencies relative to the patient with obstructive disease, but not quite as 'tight' as would occur with altitude or heart failure. Polysomnographically, this patient had severe obstruction (flow limitation, obstructive apneas and hypopneas, snoring) but relatively symmetric cycling, band-like oxygen desaturation profile, minimal disease in rapid eye movement sleep, and induction of relatively pure central apneas during positive airway pressure titration.

I know far more about Fractals than any sane person should. I've been involved with million dollar projects that won't ever work but were "Fractal" based.
Fractals mathematics is largely based on taking simple concepts (such as 1.4) and expanding them and then reducing them (via FFT) back to 1.4 and calling it success.

However some fractal relationships seem to be very common in a wide range of areas such as he ratio of volume of cats (house, mountain lion, cheeta, tiger, lions etc) matches the volume of working string instruments (Violin, Viola,Cello, Bass).

Also the Fractal dimension of many types of ring eczema exactly match ring fungus and absolutely no other living thing is even close. To me that means they are the same but modern medicine disagrees but they also disagreed with bacteria causing ulcers for several decades until someone took happy snaps of Helicobacter pylori, proved them wrong and got a Nobel prize.

Kosmonot, I don't know about fractal response, but I have had several discussions with a cardiologist about "normal" pulse rates and the variations that occur.

When I showed my pulse data I was informed that the fact that it varied was a good sign. In the paper you referenced to the A and C trace are what you would expect from someone near death. I don't know what D indicates, but it doesn't look good. B is reasonably "normal," whatever "normal" really is.

I think breathing follows a similar disjointed pattern.

I understand there are still patients in iron lungs.
Talk about low-tech.
Would this be significant?
Is it possible that flexibility of function in the organism is being underestimated?
Or am I full of hot air?
Of course; my son, the mathematician indicates that even fractals are not random; and follow very complex mathematical rules.
"Fractal generation" (or the next best thing) in machines is getting better all the time.