Machine causing insomnia

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
joepublic23
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Machine causing insomnia

Post by joepublic23 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:46 am

Am I the only person who can't fall asleep using a CPAP machine? I have long struggled with insomnia, although I had been doing fairly well over the last few years, although I am very finicky sleeper. I also snore all the time. I finally did the sleep study and got a CPAP machine.

The good news- it prevents me from snoring.
The bad news- it prevents me from snoring by preventing me from sleeping. I will lie there hooked up to the thing, unable to sleep, after about an hour I will give up and take it off since I need to get some sleep to function the next day.


I don't like the sensation of wearing a mask, it makes my breath really dry, even with the reservoir filled with distilled water. This makes it harder to relax, thus contributing to insomnia.

Exhaling can be quite difficult, I started with a nose only mask but switched to a full face mask since it was too hard to breathe with the nose mask. Sometimes the face mask doesn't make it too hard to exhale, but sometimes it does.

I asked the Doctor to drastically lower the pressure, knowing that it might be enough to stop the snoring, but on a temporary basis so I could try to get used to actually sleeping with the machine. He refused, saying it won't stop the snoring (ignoring that I can NOT sleep with such heavy pressure being rammed down my throart.

The face mask can't seem to get a good seal. The machine SAYS the seal is fine, but tossing and turning moves it around so that air leaks out the side which is quite loud and uncomfortable. Knowing this will happen makes it harder to relax, thus contributing to the insomnia. I am going back to get another fitting next month, but it is very inconvenient to do this.

I asked about going on BiPAP, thinking it was just a different setting but the Doctor's office said this requires ANOTHER sleep study, and it has to be done at the sleep lab.

Am I the only person who has a full time job? I can't keep missing work to go to appointments pursuing a treatment that probably won't work.

Should I take sleeping pills to get used to it? I have tried taking benadryl before bed on the weekends, I think I fell asleep once, but I woke up from either having air rammed down my throat or the mask sliding off a little to make a loud hissing sound.

How long should I give it before I throw in the towel?

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Pugsy
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by Pugsy » Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:57 am

CPAP didn't cause your insomnia....you already had that before you ever started cpap.

BUT all the new stuff associated with using the cpap can sure make insomnia worse.

So exactly what are those "heavy" pressures????
joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:46 am
I can NOT sleep with such heavy pressure being rammed down my throat.
What machine are you using...what mode...what are all the settings...are you using exhale pressure relief and if you are..at what setting? Using ramp???

Read this
viewtopic/t172378/Sticky--Newbies-PLEAS ... STING.html

And yes...every single complaint from you has been had said by many, many other people starting cpap. You aren't alone and every single complaint can be addressed in some fashion or another.

To be able to help you....we need a lot more specific information though.

First thing to do...use the machine and mask while awake during the day to let the brain and body get used to the new way of doing things.
Watch TV...read a book...do it when you are NOT under any pressure to fall asleep.

And yes...sometimes people do need some meds to help them over the hump...Benadryl is a good OTC choice to start with.
What dosage have you tried?

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Pugsy
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by Pugsy » Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:02 pm

joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:46 am
Am I the only person who has a full time job? I can't keep missing work to go to appointments pursuing a treatment that probably won't work.
Of course you aren't the only person needing to work and has to see a doctor for anything...get real here.
Lots of people work and manage their medical health needs. Hell...people get chemo for cancer and still manage to hold down a full time job. That pity party whine won't hold water here.

Your attitude isn't helping things.

How do you know it "probably won't work"?

I full understand your frustrations but if you go about feeling something "just won't work" there's a good chance you will create a self fulfilling prophecy.

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I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

joepublic23
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by joepublic23 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:25 pm

I know it probably won't work because I can't fall asleep wearing a watch or my wedding ring.

I can't fall asleep if I am stressed out.
I can't fall asleep if I am angry about something.
I can't fall asleep if I know I need to wake up extra early for something.
I can't fall asleep if I work too late in the evening and don't attempt any wind down time.

Heck, I can't fall asleep if I am too tired!

I can't sleep if I am stress out about falling asleep.

Hence thinking about insomnia is absolutely a self fulfilling prophesy.

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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by Pugsy » Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:05 pm

Well since you chose to answer only one of my questions and not the others that might give us a chance to help you sort through your cpap usage issues there's really not a lot we can offer except maybe see a doctor about your other sleep related issues and dealing with stress and the inability to fall asleep. There's a lot more here besides just cpap equipment issues that is going to be a factor in sleep in general.

You mention snoring....snoring is just a symptom of bigger problems with the airway. It's a symptom of OSA.
Perhaps understanding your problem better might be an impetus to put forth more effort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gie2dhqP2c
There is so much more to Obstructive Sleep Apnea than just snoring.

If you want actual help...we are here but you have to do your part as well.

If you just want to vent your anger over things....someone here will probably be willing to be your sounding board as someone here probably has experienced the same complaints that you have stated. So vent away.

I am really good at helping sort out problems and ideas to help fix problems. Not so good with being a sounding board though. I have too many other people to help who are struggling and willing to actually do the work needed so I just don't have the time and energy needed (or the patience) to be a good sounding board. If you ever really want actual help...answer my questions above.

If you just want to vent your anger then go ahead and vent and I will let the others be a sounding board. They have more time and patience than I do.

Good luck to you...I have a strong suspicion that you are going to need it.

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zonker
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by zonker » Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:06 pm

joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:25 pm
I know it probably won't work because I can't fall asleep wearing a watch or my wedding ring.

I can't fall asleep if I am stressed out.
I can't fall asleep if I am angry about something.
I can't fall asleep if I know I need to wake up extra early for something.
I can't fall asleep if I work too late in the evening and don't attempt any wind down time.

Heck, I can't fall asleep if I am too tired!

I can't sleep if I am stress out about falling asleep.

Hence thinking about insomnia is absolutely a self fulfilling prophesy.
welcome to the zoo!

if you want some help, you'll need to provide the info pugsy requested. and also read the thread she linked to.

if you're just here to complain, that's cool too.
:D
"the world is full of good people. if you can't find one, be one."-sleepgeek(avatar)

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun
You know that only the good die young"-billy joel

joepublic23
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by joepublic23 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:49 pm

CPAP didn't cause your insomnia....you already had that before you ever started cpap.

BUT all the new stuff associated with using the cpap can sure make insomnia worse.


Exactly my point. My question is how long do I continue to attempt to do this?


So exactly what are those "heavy" pressures????

I think it can ramp up to 7 or 8, although it might be 17.


oepublic23 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:46 am
I can NOT sleep with such heavy pressure being rammed down my throat.
What machine are you using...what mode...what are all the settings...are you using exhale pressure relief and if you are..at what setting? Using ramp???

I think I have a Resmed. There is a 20 minutes ramp. I don't know all the settings, it is programmed based on my prescription and I can't change anything.


Read this
viewtopic/t172378/Sticky--Newbies-PLEAS ... STING.html

And yes...every single complaint from you has been had said by many, many other people starting cpap. You aren't alone and every single complaint can be addressed in some fashion or another.

I realize that, but I definitely have more trouble falling asleep than most people do.

To be able to help you....we need a lot more specific information though.

First thing to do...use the machine and mask while awake during the day to let the brain and body get used to the new way of doing things.
Watch TV...read a book...do it when you are NOT under any pressure to fall asleep.

I have tried that. The problem is I physically cannot fall asleep using the CPAP.


And yes...sometimes people do need some meds to help them over the hump...Benadryl is a good OTC choice to start with.
What dosage have you tried?


I took 2 pills, I forget how many mgs they were. I am wondering if I should try melatonin instead OR see if the doctor will agree to a temporary prescription for a sleeping aid. I don't want to have to rely on that, but something to get me over the hump here might be a good idea.

I also wonder if I am better off just pushing to get the Inspire surgery instead. The doctor didn't seem to like that option, but he also seemed to ignore my concerns about being unable to sleep using a CPAP machine.

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zonker
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by zonker » Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:00 pm

and on to the foe list you go.
"the world is full of good people. if you can't find one, be one."-sleepgeek(avatar)

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun
You know that only the good die young"-billy joel

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mummmz
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by mummmz » Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:56 pm

Please go to your machine, read the name and report back. If it is a ResMed what model is it? In fact, better if you will fill out your cpaptalk signature with your machine, mask, settings. You can look at the screen to see your settings. It took me about 6 months to get used to using a cpap but there are ways to make it easier. Depending on your machine there are user settings that you can change. And most get into the clinical settings and tweak those settings as well. Try to think positive that CPap will work and you've won half the battle.

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by babydinosnoreless » Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:50 pm

I've had insomnia my whole life. Once I made friends with my machine it was the best thing that could possibly happen. I put on that mask and I'm out like a light. I've gone from 4-5 hours of troubled restless pain filled sleep to a full 8 hours without even having to get up to pee. Its glorious to actually sleep undisturbed some nights. (We won't discuss the stiffness and price I sometimes pay the next day but honestly its worth it to sleep)

Know that it took work and the patience of pugsy and pale rider and others here to talk me off the ledge and through my fears. The first few nights I was ready to throw the thing out the window. I don't know what machine you have so being general to all machines read up epr or pressure support. Reducing the exhale pressure helps tremendously. Learn how to go in and change your own setting. We can help if we know what machine you have. Set it as low as you need to start out then gradually increase it to a point you are comfortable and your ahi is low. Wear it during the day to get your insurance compliance time in while figuring out how it works and what is comfortable for you. Watch tv, read a book, or listen to music. Ignore the threats from your dme if you change anything. They are full of poo. Half the time so are the doctors. The dme can remotely change your settings so put it in airplane mode if they do that to you, most won't but there are a few bad apples. Just make sure you have a sd card in and its working so you can prove compliance. Most of all just relax. You can do this. Do it for you and for your family. Don't do it for them.

joepublic23
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by joepublic23 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:00 am

I have a ResMed AirSense 11 (my profile says 10, since 11 is not an available option to pick.

I can't change the settings, the support company autoset it to do what the doctor prescribed. I asked for lower pressure, they lowered it a little, but nowhere near enough for me to actually sleep.

I am supposed to do 4 hours a day to comply, on a good night I am able to get in an hour, but I usually turn it off before that so I can get some sleep.

My insomnia doesn't cause me to wake up in the middle of the night, at least not normally, it prevents me from falling asleep in the first place.

Last night I managed to get 37 minutes in. I didn't fall asleep, but it wasn't too uncomfortable at first, but then the mask started leaking like crazy so I had to stop. (Of course then it took hours to fall asleep since the darn machined has really added to my stress at bed time.

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mummmz
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by mummmz » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:22 am

OK, getting your machine and mask type is a good start. AirSense 11 is listed as starting with an A for AirSense instead of R so you can edit your signature to choose it. It happens to be the same machine I have now. That mask does look like a lot of stuff on your face. I couldn't get used to my first mask that sat over the bridge of my nose. I tried the Amara View and liked it with my previous machine. Now I have the ResMed F30 and like it as well. Both cover the mouth and sit under the nose. You might want to try that style and maybe it won't seem so obtrusive. Also, don't strap your mask down too tight, just enough for it to seal on your face.

You can definitely change some of the user settings yourself. The manual explains how. Look at "My Options" on the touchscreen on your machine. I'll tell you mine and you can come back and list yours. My pressure is set to 8.4-15. The AS11 can sense when you are asleep by your breathing pattern and won't start adjusting pressure until you are sleeping.

Ramp Time 5 min
Pressure Relief on
Humidity Level off (I put distilled water in the tray but I don't like hot air)
Mask Setting full face
tube standard
Options:
SmartStart on
SmartStop on
Used hours 7.2
Pressure 11.4
Leak 16L/min
AHI 0.2
Obstructive AI 0.1
Central AI 0.1

Did you get a chance to ready the sticky message Pugsy mentioned? It explains how to download OSCAR and what to post here to get help. You do need to remove the microSD card and have a card reader. If you use OSCAR all of the above and more will be on the screen for you. Post it even if all you have is 30 minutes. :) If they didn't provide an SD care with your machine ask them for one. That's what I had to do. Otherwise, you can purchase one fairly cheaply.

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Machine: AirSense 11 Autoset
Mask: ResMed AirFit™ F30 Mask + 2 Replacement Cushions Bundle
Additional Comments: Autopap Min 8.4, max 15, ramp off, flex 3, heated humidity off, O2 therapy added 5/20/22 & discontinued 8/26/22 after asthmas dx/treatment
Last edited by mummmz on Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Pugsy
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:47 am

https://media.resmed.com/sites/3/202106 ... ER-ENG.pdf

Above is the link to the clinical/provider manual for the AirSense 11 model series. It's a combo manual meaning it has all model information.

This is a different manual than the combo user manual you got because in the above manual it explains how to get to the clinical setup area where you could change things but right now we aren't asking that anything be changed.
We are just asking that you write down ALL the settings you see so we can see what those settings are.
Similar to what mummmz showed as hers.

You really need to alert your doctor to the fact that you simply can't fall asleep with the mask and machine being on yet....
they need to know because for one thing it will obviously affect compliance insurance requirements....they may need to allow for more time than is usually needed.
The other thing is maybe you do need some RX help to get over the hump. Until you can actually sleep with the mask and machine on there is zero way to know if any settings are actually working to prevent the OSA from happening.
Awake data from the machine is useless.

Given your history with sleep onset insomnia from the least little thing....I am not so sure that the pressure itself is the sole cause of your inability to fall asleep. You think it is "high" but it might not be. Often people complain of "high" pressures and they really aren't that high but they SEEM high. Your complaints as to the pressure are common though and there are some tricks that might could help but without knowing exactly what all your settings are now we really have no where to go with ideas to help you maybe overcome your sleep onset insomnia problem.

And yes...they set the machine but you CAN change anything if you want to....you are in charge.
But again right now we are only asking for the current settings to see if there is something there that might help you adjust.
Just look at the settings for now....looking doesn't have to mean changing anything.

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I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

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Pugsy
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:49 am

I think there is a video on this page that shows how to get to the setup menu area on the AirSense 11 machines.
https://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap- ... tup-manual
Perhaps that will also help you if you do better with visual ques but I strongly suggest downloading the manual I linked to above because it has better information in it than the user manual has.

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Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

joepublic23
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Re: Machine causing insomnia

Post by joepublic23 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:49 am

What is Oscar? I haven't bothered with the app, since at this point I only have 1 concern- can I fall asleep using the machine? Thus far I cannot (I did once, briefly but then it woke me up.)

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