Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
philsil
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Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by philsil » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:16 pm

Hi all. Long time lurker. First time poster. I read the newbie wiki, so hopefully I don't screw this up too bad. Graph below for reference.

Bit of background - Diagnosed with complex apnea with an AHI of about 45 in 2016 (about 290lbs at the time). I have been using my resmed bipap religiously since then with great success and virtually no issues until the last few months. Originally pressure was 15/11. AHI was usually under 1.

In June I had weight loss surgery and went from 320 (my highest) to 220 (current and still losing) in the past ~4 months. As I've lost weight, AHI was starting to creep up (to around 6 - almost all CA). Doc changed script to 13/9 as a result. That fixed things for a short period, and as I lost weight, it crept back up again. Doc changed script again a few days ago to 14/8. That's when all hell broke loose. Last night's AHI was 64 (again, almost all CA). The other nights since the change were extremely bad as well (I believe 54 and 44).

In case you're wondering, yes, I called the doc. They are changing the pressure again. 15/10 starting tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.

All that being said, what does the collective brain trust think about this information? Do you see anything in the charts that would show why my AHI went up so much? Any other insight that you can provide based on this info? Happy to provide whatever other info you need to evaluate things.

Thanks in advance.
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Pugsy
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:25 pm

I have one idea and it is as follows.
With the weight loss you don't need as much pressure as you used to need and with the weight loss you may have developed some unstable breathing due to the bilevel pressures...specifically the increase in PS or pressure support (which is the difference between inhale and exhale). That's why it got worse when they did 6 PS with the exhale at 8 and inhale at 14.
The unstable breathing ends up with a carbon dioxide wash out causing the central/clear airway apneas.

Do you wish to try a rather drastic experiment tonight for one night to see if it helps or not?
My idea...reduce PS drastically and see if the centrals reduce. If I am correct I don't think reducing PS to 5 is going to help you all that much and that is what you would be getting with 10/15.

Cut the PS in half and try 3 PS....so 8 exhale and PS of 3 and that makes inhale of 11. Are you comfortable doing that yourself?

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philsil
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by philsil » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:39 pm

Thanks for the super fast response!

I tried to get into the provider settings when this all started to see if I could make some changes, but can't seem to get in. When I press ramp and the big circle button nothing happens no matter how long I hold them. Is it possible that the functionality can be turned off? Or am I just doing something dumb and don't realize it?

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Pugsy
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:46 pm

No...there is no way to block you or turn off those clinical menu setup function choices. I suspect missing a step somewhere.

Request the provider manual from here via email. It explains the steps.
https://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap- ... tup-manual

and the video of how
https://www.apneaboard.com/adjust-cpap- ... tup-manual

If it is like the Respironics machines I have used in the past you have to actually turn a knob after the 5 second combo thing to get into the setup menu area. I haven't used a DreamStation so I can't for sure know if that's the way it does thing. With past models I would still have to turn a knob to get finally into the setup menu area after I did the ramp/knob 5 second combo thing.

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philsil
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by philsil » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:55 pm

Thanks again for the fast response. I'll give it a go and report back.

philsil
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by philsil » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:06 am

Wow. Pugsy, you were spot on! 1.6 AHI last night! Thank you SO MUCH for the help!

Any suggestions for fine-tuning as I continue to drop weight?

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zonker
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by zonker » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:29 am

philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:06 am
Wow. Pugsy, you were spot on! 1.6 AHI last night! Thank you SO MUCH for the help!
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Pugsy
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:49 pm

Here's the deal with pressure support (that difference between inhale and exhale)...in some people it can cause an imbalance in the gas exchanges that happen during respiration. It ends up causing central apneas to happen because of too much carbon dioxide wash out and it's actually carbon dioxide levels that the brain recognizes as a trigger to tell the body to breathe.

The weight loss has most likely caused a lot of changes in your entire metabolism and for some reason brought you to the point where your breathing has changed and you get too much carbon dioxide wash out with the bilevel pressure support settings you used to use without a problem. I have seen this happen with a couple of other people who had a significant weight loss...not only do they not need as much pressure to control their OSA...their bodies develop the unstable breathing gas exchange problem when using any form of pressure support or even just a little exhale relief.

You might find that with more weight loss the centrals want to creep up again and if that should happen we would first want to reduce PS even more. It's your body changing overall that likely causes it but I don't understand how the mechanics of how weight loss itself causes this problem.

I am not so sure you need the 8/11 settings at this point...you might be able to get by with less pressure. I don't know if the pressures are a factor in the complex sleep apnea or not but at some point if all you ever see are central apneas then a new sleep study done without cpap of any kind might be in order to see if you got lucky and your OSA went away with the weight going away. Of course gotta keep the weight off as well.

In your situation for right now....PS was your problem....it caused the centrals and that's not common but not totally unheard of either or I wouldn't have thought of it. Sometimes there is a very fine line where PS is the problem. I have a friend who gets about 20 centrals per hour with PS of 4 and essentially none with PS of 3. Go figure that one but sometimes a small change makes a big difference.

I don't know what you are going to tell your doctor about what you have done. They usually aren't too keen on "someone on the internet told me to do this".... :lol: :lol: but I don't think you need 10/15 for sure and obviously PS is the culprit here. PS of 5 would likely have shown a small reduction in the centrals but not enough because we already know that the centrals were too numerous with PS of 4.

I would run with these settings for a week or so and see if they hold and if you wish to try maybe auto mode later to see if you really need 8/11 for OSA treatment...we could maybe give it a go and see if you can get by with even less pressure. Choice is yours.
Sort of do a DIY titration at home to get an idea what pressures are needed to deal with your OSA (assuming you still have it after the weight loss). I have a good friend who was able to lose her OSA and need for cpap after her weight loss surgery and the loss of weight (and she kept it off). I can't guarantee it for anyone but sometimes losing the weight does mean losing the OSA.

It's obvious that PS is your problem with the centrals though.....your body doesn't like it so don't let your doctors try to do it.
If you do decide you want to do a DIY at home titration...I am here to try to help.

Glad my little idea worked out. It was my only idea.... :lol: :lol:

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philsil
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by philsil » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 pm

zonker wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:29 am
philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:06 am
Wow. Pugsy, you were spot on! 1.6 AHI last night! Thank you SO MUCH for the help!
she's a wonder, ain't she?
Damn right she is! I feel 100% better today than I did yesterday. Not have to change the settings back from the doc's (or more accurately, the PA's) most recent revision!

Can't say thanks enough, so once again, THANK YOU PUGSY! As you suggest, I'll still with the 8/11 for the time being. Maybe fiddle with it a bit after the week or try the auto as you suggest. If I could lose the machine entirely, that would be great, but it's a bit of a pipe dream. The centrals were part of my initial problem, and those likely won't go away with weight loss (or so I've been told).

I'll report back in a week or so and give an update unless all hell breaks loose again!

One last time, thanks a ton!

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:10 pm

I don’t see how we can say this too often:

THANK YOU PUGSY!!!

And how I wish everyone had a PA or doc who had even 1% of her knowledge.
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Pugsy
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:03 pm

philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 pm
If I could lose the machine entirely, that would be great, but it's a bit of a pipe dream. The centrals were part of my initial problem, and those likely won't go away with weight loss (or so I've been told).
Without seeing the original sleep study and how many centrals you had at that time and why....hard to say but the bilevel machine you are currently on isn't really used for central apnea all that often. Usually a different kind of bilevel machine is used when centrals are numerous enough to be a real problem.

At any rate....your body will have changed a lot by the time you get the weight off and keep it off. Your metabolism will have changed as well. What might have been a trigger back then might not be a trigger for centrals or whatever with the weight off. There are a lot of potential reasons for central apneas and perhaps if you did have too many centrals back then....maybe whatever that cause might have been will be gone now.

Just something to think about. It's a maybe I know but something to think about and/or have a chat with your doctor about down the road.

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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by zonker » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:49 pm

Miss Emerita wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:10 pm
I don’t see how we can say this too often:

THANK YOU PUGSY!!!

And how I wish everyone had a PA or doc who had even 1% of her knowledge.
+1
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by zonker » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:56 pm

philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 pm
zonker wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:29 am
philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:06 am
Wow. Pugsy, you were spot on! 1.6 AHI last night! Thank you SO MUCH for the help!
she's a wonder, ain't she?
Damn right she is! I feel 100% better today than I did yesterday. Not have to change the settings back from the doc's (or more accurately, the PA's) most recent revision!

Image

i want you to know that when YOU feel good, WE feel good. it's why we are here. we got the benefit of this forum and we want others to feel it too.

remember, how you feel, how you sleep, is more important than achieving some arbitrary low ahi number.
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Dog Slobber » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:44 am

zonker wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:29 am
philsil wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:06 am
Wow. Pugsy, you were spot on! 1.6 AHI last night! Thank you SO MUCH for the help!
she's a wonder, ain't she?
Miss Emerita wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:10 pm
I don’t see how we can say this too often:

THANK YOU PUGSY!!!

And how I wish everyone had a PA or doc who had even 1% of her knowledge.
Darn right she's a wonder.

In fact, because of her, (knowing she's a Cardinals fan), I've decided to forgive the Cards for their hacking/cheating scandal and support them in their World Series drive.

Thank you, Pugsy, and go Cards go!


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Pugsy
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Re: Holy AHI Increase - What's going on?

Post by Pugsy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:07 am

Dog Slobber wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:44 am
I've decided to forgive the Cards for their hacking/cheating scandal and support them in their World Series drive.
That wasn't my Cardinals...that was the Houston Astros debacle. Though I am sure all the teams try their darndest to figure out the other teams signals....it was the Astros who had the whistle blower. They traded off a guy who ended up blowing the whistle or their behind the scenes antics.

I love my Cards but I won't be putting any hard money on them this year. They aren't hitting like they can hit and their pitching is hit and miss. Now miracles can happen but I don't go around holding my breath waiting on them.

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