zonker's crib--somewhere over the rainbow

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:44 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:43 am
hey, guys, got a question about this chart-
[nightly overview]
those clusters of oa, do they look real or swj? i don't particularly remember being awake at those times, but it's possible.

what do you think?

You can't tell without looking at the breath shapes leading up to the individual events.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:13 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:44 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:43 am
hey, guys, got a question about this chart-
[nightly overview]
those clusters of oa, do they look real or swj? i don't particularly remember being awake at those times, but it's possible.

what do you think?
You can't tell without looking at the breath shapes leading up to the individual events.

then, kind sir, please tell me what i should "screen shoot" to display here for your perusal.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:41 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:13 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:44 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:43 am
hey, guys, got a question about this chart-
[nightly overview]
those clusters of oa, do they look real or swj? i don't particularly remember being awake at those times, but it's possible.

what do you think?
You can't tell without looking at the breath shapes leading up to the individual events.
then, kind sir, please tell me what i should "screen shoot" to display here for your perusal.

Well, go to the events tab, click on one of the events you're wondering about, and that'll zoom in on that event, then scroll (with the arrow keys) the event itself over close to the right side of the strip... that'll show a good bit of breathing pre-event.

screenshot-20190316-163857.png

Like that. by putting the event over on the right, you see more of what's leading up to it, (most people just click on it, which puts it in the middle of the screen... that wouldn't have shown enough 'lead up' to tell that this one was *probably* the result of something else disturbing sleep, not just an apnea out of the blue.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:20 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:41 pm

Well, go to the events tab, click on one of the events you're wondering about, and that'll zoom in on that event, then scroll (with the arrow keys) the event itself over close to the right side of the strip... that'll show a good bit of breathing pre-event.

goodness! i think i may just have done it-

screenshot-3-15-19zoom.png

what does this tell you?

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:56 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:20 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:41 pm

Well, go to the events tab, click on one of the events you're wondering about, and that'll zoom in on that event, then scroll (with the arrow keys) the event itself over close to the right side of the strip... that'll show a good bit of breathing pre-event.

goodness! i think i may just have done it-

what does this tell you?

Nicely done sir, exactly right.

While I wish the y axis scaling was less squished (common complaint about sleepyhead's presenting of the data, not your fault), it looks to me like a legit apnea... your breathing was restricted, tapering off to nothing.

I'd say 'more pressure' when you can work up to it.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:37 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:56 pm

Nicely done sir, exactly right.

While I wish the y axis scaling was less squished (common complaint about sleepyhead's presenting of the data, not your fault), it looks to me like a legit apnea... your breathing was restricted, tapering off to nothing.

I'd say 'more pressure' when you can work up to it.

good, got the min bumped up and we'll see. that will make it 13, if i survive it. that's so hard to believe that i'm using this kind of pressure.

but we'll see. i've had my ahi going up over the last week. i think it's in conjunction with my giving up my potasium and magnesium, but it may just be coincidence. two nights ago, i turned of epr, turned off soft response and turned off the "for her" option. just wanted to, in effect, start over. the aerophagia wan't horrid, but didn't like it either.

but tonight, i've set it for min 13 and epr to 1.

i'll see how it goes.

thanks!

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:42 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:37 pm

but we'll see. i've had my ahi going up over the last week. i think it's in conjunction with my giving up my potasium and magnesium, but it may just be coincidence. two nights ago, i turned of epr, turned off soft response and turned off the "for her" option. just wanted to, in effect, start over. the aerophagia wan't horrid, but didn't like it either.

I'm not sure that 'going back to the start' is necessarily a good idea... not when things were getting better.

But, I understand the desire to experiment, and you're not doing it at random... you've got a much better idea what works and what does what than you used to.

Why did you stop the potassium and magnesium again?

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:43 pm

KnightSleeper wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:39 pm
Palerider loves it when I keep messing around with my variables!!!

I'm just waiting for you to get yourself a vauto and start diddling with all those extra settings...

PS, TiMax, Trigger, Cycle, TiMin, etc.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:36 pm

KnightSleeper wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:39 pm

Hey Zonker, good luck with that new pressure! Palerider jacked mine up to 14 cm a while back... So far, so good... I actually had it up to 14.4.... Since I dropped my urp (EPR ) I just lowered it back to 14. Palerider loves it when I keep messing around with my variables!!! Luckily my ahi has been improving. Good luck with your new setting! I hope it works for you!

what's so wierd for me is that for the longest time, i couldn't get past a min of 10. it was stupid, because, of course, my pressure would rise during the night anyway but for some reason, starting there was bad.

anyway, we'll see how it goes....

jimbud · Post by **jimbud** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:45 pm

zonker said :

and turned off the "for her" option. just wanted to, in effect, start over. the aerophagia wan't horrid, but didn't like it either.

Just thought I would chime in for what it is worth.
A few weeks ago I accidently turned on the "for her option". For about four or five days my OAs and HAs Climbed in numbers by quite a lot. I had no OAs for weeks before and few HAs. Could not figure what the heck was going on. My pressure line had flattened some and seemed to not be reacting as fast or as strongly. I went in to the clinical menu to up my pressure and noticed that I was in the "for her mode" I switched back and everything went back to normal. I guess it sometimes does not take much to mess things up big time with these APAP settings. I have read your "zonker's crib" thread with interest because it seems our therapy is a fairly close match. Have used some of the advice on there on myself. YMMV as we all know by now. Good luck. I am rooting for you.
JPB

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:49 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:42 pm

I'm not sure that 'going back to the start' is necessarily a good idea... not when things were getting better.

But, I understand the desire to experiment, and you're not doing it at random... you've got a much better idea what works and what does what than you used to.

Why did you stop the potassium and magnesium again?

tl;dr. in "my calling all light sleepers" thread, i was asking what my fellow light sleepers did to help them sleep without waking up. amongst them was dogsarelife who suggested the magnesium and/or potasium might be lowering my blood pressure, causing my body to increase hormones, thus keeping me awake. here's the full thing-

dogsarelife wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:43 pm
hey zonker - what you are describing in your opening post sounds mildly frustrating!

I don't know if any of what I'm writing applies to you or if it is things you have already considered but some food for thought -

1. Can I ask when was the last time you took a break from the supplements you are taking?

Back when I took supplements (now I just take vitamin D every so often), I liked to take a break from everything for 2-3 weeks, just to see if any weird symptoms I was having were somehow coming from the supplements or interactions between them?

At the level of magnesium you are taking I would have diarrhea! and some weird head pains. I learned that with supplements, sometimes less is more?

Seems like this guy (note - he seems a bit woo...and like he would rather pop vitamins and minerals than eat food)- https://blog.bulletproof.com/hack-your- ... an-rhythm/ - also took potassium and magnesium at night and switched to taking them in the morning and his rationale was:

"The problem with potassium and magnesium is that they can drop your blood pressure, and you want your blood pressure a little higher when you wake up in the morning. Otherwise, your body will raise cortisol and adrenaline to make it high enough."

So is it possible your supplements are somehow lowering your blood pressure a lot, and your body is raising stress hormones to compensate?

I saw you said you have some medical conditions you have that necessitate your supplements though, so of course talk to your doctor, nurse, physician's assistant,etc.

But I've definitely found a drug or supplement that was supposed to help one condition end up causing another annoying side effect that affected sleep.

2. The book Chronotherapy by Dr. Michael Terman was an interesting one that my offer you some ideas on getting deeper sleep. He runs the sleep center at Columbia University and talks about the zeitgeber, or time giver. It's something to let our bodies know it's time to be awake versus time to be asleep. So an exogeneous zeitgeber would be an alarm clock, or exercise/socialization/other activity, or the sun, or the temperature dropping lower; and then an example of an endogenous zeitgeber would be the slow increasing production of melatonin by the pineal gland after the sun goes down, and other messages from the SCN, the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus of the hypothalamus, which controls much (if not all?) of the body's circadian rhythms.

Dr. Terman works with people who have to travel a lot and deal with jet lag from constantly changing time zones, and he says that as the body's levels of melatonin production are actually quite small, unlike what you buy over the counter, most people do best with much much smaller amounts of melatonin. I think he said the body on its own produces only 300 mcg (0.3 mg) of melatonin ( I could have that number wrong) and he recommends taking 0.1 mg (not micrograms!) 3 hours before bed, then 0.1 mg 2 hours bed, and then 0.1 mg 1 hour before bed, to mimic the body's natural production of melatonin. I tried it once or twice and it worked at giving me deep sleep for 2 nights? but then I got annoyed at having to take it 3 times a night and eventually it wore off in effectiveness, probably because I had UARS/OSA back then, which was preventing me from achieving deep sleep and staying asleep.

And his other thing is maximizing people's circadian rhythms by having them expose themselves to bright light of very high flux for 10-15 minutes a day when they wake up with a bright light monitor. You can buy a bright light monitor on amazon. He writes in the book that some of his patient say sitting with the bright light is more effective at waking them up than a cup of coffee, especially if they are in area that doesn't get as much bright light in winter, but he cautions that bright light monitors aren't for everyone, as they can worsen seasonal affective disorder and bipolar disorder if the light setting/timing isn't right, or if you have a circadian rhythm disorder where your day/night rhythms are different than everyone else.

It's been 8 years since I read the book, and I was under a sleep apnea fog, so who knows if I am explaining or remembering things right. But I just wanted to say that I have the same issue with melatonin as you - it never helped me stay asleep, only get drowsy before bed, and maybe the 0.1 mg x 3 melatonin dosage schedule before bed would be more beneficial in helping you stay asleep? (I sort of doubt it? but it's an interesting experiment nonetheless).

So anyway, his ideas on their own didn't work because I needed xpap, but the idea of zeitgeber stayed with me and I try to incorporate some of the very basic ideas- eat around the same times each day, get some bright light from the sun in the morning/afternoon if I can, use f.lux program on my computer at night to increase natural melatonin production, etc.

Do you live somewhere that gets ample sun in winter?

Take care, and thanks for all the joy from the gifs you have bestowed upon us!

i don't know if it's true, but decided to try forgoing them anyway. i figured the worst that could happen was my leg cramps would return and i would go back on the regime. but 5 nights or however long it's been, haven't had leg cramps.

so even if this doesn't impact my light sleeping, it's shown me that i can save the money i've been spending on those supplements. so far, i think it's had a slight effect on that and will see if i get better at staying asleep. i may also go off my other supplements that i take in the morning.

BUT at the same time, my ahi has gone up. as i'm not in the same space i was when i first started cpap(that is, i've got to do everything i can to lower my ahi!!), i feel i can experiment a bit and not feel so helpless. i can feel more in control.

as i say, we'll see. it would be nice if i can have it all. in the end, i'd prefer the low numbers(and the lesser amount of headaches) than the having unbroken sleep and high ahi.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:53 pm

jimbud wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:45 pm

My pressure line had flattened some and seemed to not be reacting as fast or as strongly. I went in to the clinical menu to up my pressure and noticed that I was in the "for her mode" I switched back and everything went back to normal. I guess it sometimes does not take much to mess things up big time with these APAP settings. I have read your "zonker's crib" thread with interest because it seems our therapy is a fairly close match. Have used some of the advice on there on myself. YMMV as we all know by now. Good luck. I am rooting for you.
JPB

yeah, you can see in the chart i posted that i didn't rise above 14 something in pressure when tackling those ahi. i'm going to double check to see if i'm back in standard mode before i mask up.

what things did you try? did anything work for you?

jimbud · Post by **jimbud** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:25 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:53 pm
check to see if i'm back in standard mode before i mask up.

what things did you try? did anything work for you?

I am still a work in progress. Am currently just upping my pressure ( min) by 2cm a night. EPR at 1. Tried to off EPR the other night. No go. Started feeling like an over inflated beach ball with pain. Am currently Max. 13.8 - Min. 11.2 . Tried jumping all over the place until it became apparent that the only way to figure this APAP thing out is one thing at a time one step at a time. In this case patience is truly a virtue. I am not by nature a patient man. Have a lot of CAs, but have figured them out to be SWJ thanks to palerider and pugsy posts. Without them I would be truly lost.
I am a slow typer, but steady.
JPB

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:52 pm

jimbud wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:25 pm

zonker wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:53 pm
check to see if i'm back in standard mode before i mask up.

what things did you try? did anything work for you?
I am a slow typer, but steady.
JPB

yep, slow and steady wins the race. so they tell me. not too patient myself, with myself. but there's no point in flying off the handle, as my mother would've said.

zonker · Post by **zonker** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:09 am

palerider wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:56 pm

I'd say 'more pressure' when you can work up to it.

and here are the results of pressure of 13-20....

screenshot-3-16-19.png

slept even better, score wise, in the second half of the night. decided to do some different positioning with my scunci rig. had much less aerophagia but was still not sleeping soundly because i was anxious about the new re-arrangement of my rig. i see i did get some big leaks at first, but it settled down.

will, of course, stay at this pressure setting for awhile. as my thread here shows, i am very vulnerable to making any changes and not letting them settle in.

again, thanks for confirming that the oa cluster was real.

excelsior!!

zonker's crib--somewhere over the rainbow

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