stomach herniating

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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OldLincoln
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by OldLincoln » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:57 pm

rooster wrote:
OldLincoln wrote: EDIT: I just came across the linked article and hope everybody reads it.
empowher.com article
One interesting post, but I don't see resolution of any of the problems. My doctors could not offer any helpful advice.
The solution is in the final post of the thread and copied below. This was also my solution 2 years ago. One more time.... APAP has a 70%+ compliance rate vs. 50% for CPAP. That's significant!

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Comment by fritzgla on August 23, 2009 - 10:45am

It was my question that started this strand. I am delighted to say that after being prescribed an Auto-titrating machine I no longer suffer from the gastric insufflation. My suggestion to anyone who is suffering with gas because of a single-pressure CPAP is to begin the process to obtain an APAP or BIPAP machine. When I requested an APAP my HMO denied me. After filing a grievance (California allows such actions) I was tested by the HMO sleep lab and after some time was prescribed the new machine. Luckily my HMO had begun to "see the light" and realized that because of the gas many apnea patients simply put the machines on the shelf rather than suffer every night.

If you are one of those or have continued to have problems with gas while using a CPAP, by all means start the process of requesting an auto or bilevel machine. As noted in one of the responses above, gastric insufflation can cause some serious health problems and prescribing an auto or bilevel machine should be "formulary" for those with the problem.
=========================================
ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet / F&P Simplex / DME: VA
It's going to be okay in the end; if it's not okay, it's not the end.

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Portageegal
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by Portageegal » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:46 am

I've had one Nissan Fundo and a year later had to have a mesh put in. My entire stomach was up in my chest. I recently developed the ventral hernia, which the Dr. said was a result of the two laproscopic surgeries. That picture was from last weekend, and I must say, I was very uncomfortable. I usually burp a lot, but did not then, thus the problem. I have since and it registered high on the richter scale.
My pressure is usually 12-14. I use a Quattro FFM.
Carol

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roster
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by roster » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:55 pm

OldLincoln wrote: This was also my solution 2 years ago. One more time.... APAP has a 70%+ compliance rate vs. 50% for CPAP. That's significant!
Significant of what? Many, maybe most, patients are given a straight CPAP with their initial prescription. A large portion of these are not resolved to be successful and give up CPAP soon. Of all the patients who use APAPs, it may be that the majority were originally given CPAPs and later acquired APAPs. So the set of people who are 70% compliant with APAPs may be heavily skewed toward individuals with resolve to be successful. Conversely, the set of 50% noncompliant with CPAP, may be heavily skewed toward people who were lackadaisacal about compliance. So it may not be the type of machine that is making the difference in compliance rates.


OldLincoln wrote:
If you are one of those or have continued to have problems with gas while using a CPAP, by all means start the process of requesting an auto or bilevel machine. As noted in one of the responses above, gastric insufflation can cause some serious health problems and prescribing an auto or bilevel machine should be "formulary" for those with the problem.
I use an APAP by choice and recommend APAPs to all new patients. I hope everyone who wants an APAP can get one. OL, I am very glad that your problem was solved. But I am skeptical that APAPs will solve aerophagia problems for many patients and I remain skeptical that it solved it for you.

What pressure were you using with CPAP when you had the problems? What pressure range are you using with APAP while not experiencing the problems? What does the pressure graph typically look like and what is the 90% pressure?
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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tattooyu
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by tattooyu » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:27 pm

I would think that there are many possible solutions to gastric insufflation:
  • Lowering pressure on CPAP to a comfortable yet still effective pressure
  • Repairing a severely weak or damaged LES via Nissen Fundoplication
  • Getting an APAP and setting the minimum pressure to be comfortable yet still in range to reach up and prevent events
  • Stopping xPAP therapy (DON'T DO IT!)
  • Getting a tracheostomy, thus negating the need for xPAP
  • Increasing pressure and exhalation relief the same amount (worked for me)
  • ...
Sleep well and live better!

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OldLincoln
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by OldLincoln » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:43 pm

Rooster, I understand your thought, that if one bothers to switch to APAP they have a desire to be successful. I do not know how the studies were set up (but will look for it). I would like to see studies of both groups having received their machines right from the outset.

The folks I am addressing here are mostly on CPAP with painful Gastric Insufflation and am attempting to explain the risks and potential solutions.

You said
"But I am skeptical that APAPs will solve aerophagia problems for many patients and I remain skeptical that it solved it for you.
What pressure were you using with CPAP when you had the problems? What pressure range are you using with APAP while not experiencing the problems? What does the pressure graph typically look like and what is the 90% pressure? "

Switching to APAP immediately solved the problem with the first night's use and it has not returned since.

My titration showed problems starting around 7cm and resolved at 10cm, so of course they set my CPAP at 10CM and the problem came with it. When after 22 months I finally had enough and told the doc to switch me to APAP or lose me, we switched with a range from 6 to 12.

Scores:
NOTE: Respironics Auto M scores everything as events with timestamps in their database. So if pressure is 6 when first turned on at 2100:00 and it goes to 6.5 at 2115:00 you get 2 events and the reporting application does the math to show you were at 6 for 15 minutes.

Arithmetic Mean is the midway mark of the total events captured, not the time spent there. Thus, when they report "Mean Pressure" the arithmetic mean would be the pressure at which 50% of the pressure events took place. I think they intend to measure the pressure based on 50% of the minutes for the night. I would like this to be clarified by someone who is not guessing like me.

My scores over the past 211 days are as follows:
Mean pressure: 6.9 (50% time =< 6.9)
Peak avg pressure: 8.4 [? Average high of each time the pressure goes up then down?]
90% pressure: 8.6
Avg AHI: 3.9
Avg AI: 1.2

By slowly adjusting my lower limit upward I discovered my troubles start at 7.5cm so that is my threshold. The LES opens according to how much pressure is applied so the more pressure the wider it gets. With CPAP at 10cm it must have been pretty wide.

Another "thing" of mine is using the 90% pressure. If I spend 50% of the night in the 6's, 25% in 7's, 15% in 8's (my actual scores), what relevance does the 90% number (8.6) have for my treatment? To me it is meaningless. Someone else could spend 90% in 8's and 10% in 9's and still have 90% at 8.6 but the issues are very different. But I have digressed...

Rooster, I hope this helps you understand my passion for the subject.

tattooyu... Lowering CPAP pressure to a comfortable yet effective level would be great if ones threshold is above the pressure required to clear events. I suspect this is the case for many who have not experienced the pain of gastric Insufflation. In my case I need 10-12 to clear events while my LES threshold is 7.5. CPAP will never work for me.

Nissen Fundoplication is for repair of a hiatal hernia and as far as I know does not address the LES. Also, it is not a walk in the park. My son has had it done twice.

As for tracheostomy, I have considered it, but consider myself too old for it now and there are a lot of associated issues to consider. Here is the one I would get however:
-------------------------------------
A Tracheal Button is a rigid cannula that can be placed into the tracheostomy stoma after removal of a tracheostomy tube. The button does not extend into the tracheal lumen. The tracheal button requires a mature stomal tract, and is generally used as a long-term solution for people with obstructive sleep apnea, which cannot be treated by other means.

It is generally kept closed during the day to be unobtrusive, and opened at night to eliminate sleep apnea. Since the tube does not extend far into the airway itself (like a standard tracheotomy tube), it is easy to breath and talk normally with the device in place. It does not need to be opened during the day, since there is no fixed airway obstruction, as in laryngotracheal stenosis. In sleep apnea, the blockage is due to dynamic collapse of the soft tissue of the throat during the muscle relaxation that accompanies sleep.

More Tracheal Button Info
----------------------------------------
ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet / F&P Simplex / DME: VA
It's going to be okay in the end; if it's not okay, it's not the end.

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roster
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by roster » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:23 pm

OldLincoln wrote: My titration showed problems starting around 7cm and resolved at 10cm, so of course they set my CPAP at 10CM and the problem came with it.
Peak avg pressure: 8.4 [? Average high of each time the pressure goes up then down?]
Avg AHI: 3.9
Avg AI: 1.2

By slowly adjusting my lower limit upward I discovered my troubles start at 7.5cm so that is my threshold. The LES opens according to how much pressure is applied so the more pressure the wider it gets. With CPAP at 10cm it must have been pretty wide.

Rooster, I hope this helps you understand my passion for the subject.

-----
If you found something that solves the problem, I can certainly understand the passion.

So your LES problems start at 7.5 and the APAP allows you to run below this a good portion of the night. But you do spend some time above 7.5 and I am wondering how much problem that causes you?

I am running 7.5 - 20.0 and the pressure rarely steps up beyond 8.0 (as long as I stay off my back). The last time I tried to run below 7.5 minimum my AI went up. But I have lost some weight since then and being encouraged by your description, I may try to titrate the minimum below 7.5 and see if my AI will stay down and hope my aerophagia will be no more than minor. The other challenge for me is that pressures below 7.5 give me a "suffocating feeling", but this may be entirely a mental thing to overcome.

At 7.5 I have to sleep on my tummy to prevent aerophagia. But after five or six hours my body wants to move to sidesleeping. If I can titrate the minimum lower, maybe I can sleep on my side the last couple of hours of the night without bad aerophagia.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your success.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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OldLincoln
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by OldLincoln » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:12 pm

Yeah, I started out thinking the LES would pop wide open at threshold since it is a flap valve, but because I have little or no air for the short times my pressure rises, I've come to think of it like a door with a spring closure that requires increasing pressure the wider you open it. May not be right but that's how it feels.

I also looked at time spent in Apnea and figure if my throat is blocked, so is the pressure on the way up so it's only pressure after the event is cleared that allows air through the LES. I obviously have too much time on my hands when I start to calc all that stuff. Truth is I've pretty much stopped fretting over the numbers and look at how I feel. I download the card every week or two or when something doesn't feel right, but the numbers pretty much stay the same now.

Now I like my Forma mask so much I'll lay in bed in the mornings with the machine running. It feels like I'm outside with the wind blowing fresh air in my face. I know, sick huh? Think there's a pill for that?
ResMed AirSense 10 AutoSet / F&P Simplex / DME: VA
It's going to be okay in the end; if it's not okay, it's not the end.

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roster
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by roster » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:30 pm

OldLincoln wrote:.......
Now I like my Forma mask so much I'll lay in bed in the mornings with the machine running. It feels like I'm outside with the wind blowing fresh air in my face. I know, sick huh? Think there's a pill for that?

I will say the same thing. If I want to lie in bed for a few minutes after awakening in the morning, the feel of the air pressure on my face is comforting. If I pull the mask off, there is an immediate urge to get up.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

bsax

Re: stomach herniating

Post by bsax » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:31 pm

just started 3 weeks into a res med auto cpap or apap machine have a horrible hard distended stomach hard to sit with pressure on heart and upper gi read all articles where is the doctors that sell the cpap machines?

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Wulfman
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by Wulfman » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:56 pm

bsax wrote:just started 3 weeks into a res med auto cpap or apap machine have a horrible hard distended stomach hard to sit with pressure on heart and upper gi read all articles where is the doctors that sell the cpap machines?
The doctors don't typically sell the CPAP machines. That's usually done through Durable Medical Equipment supply stores or online sellers.

Go up to the Search line near the top of the page and put in "aerophagia". Your distended stomach is from swallowing air.

Without knowing how your machine is configured, we won't know what to suggest.

Do you have the software to see the reports of the data your machine collects each night?


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LSAT
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Re: stomach herniating

Post by LSAT » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:32 pm

Old Lincoln...You said..."Nissen Fundoplication is for repair of a hiatal hernia and as far as I know does not address the LES. Also, it is not a walk in the park. My son has had it done twice". (How did we get on this subject?)

You are wrong!..The Fundoplication wraps the "fundus" of the stomach around the lower esophagus to secure the LES. A side advantacge of this surgery is that the HH is repaired at the same time. You can search "nissen fundoplication" and find lots of information. Mine was done 8 years ago.

You also said..."I started out thinking the LES would pop wide open at threshold since it is a flap valve."
The LES is not a flap valve it is a sphincter (lower esophageal sphincter)...much like your anus. I can show you pictures if you are interested.