Question for the sleep experts (or anyone else)

Is it "bad" to be woken up during a sleep cycle? If I understand correctly, most(some?) people go through several stages of sleep ending with REM sleep then wake up and go back to sleep starting the cycle over again several times a nite(this happens to me). Is that correct?

If that is true, my main question is this. I frequently wake up about an hour or less before my alarm(ie:the wife) wakes me up in the morning. I usually fall asleep again before the "alarm" goes off and wakes me up. Should I just get up and start my day when I naturally wake up or wait to be woken up?

I am one of those poor souls-or the only one!-who has the non data recording Resmed(?) Plus machine so I can not give you any data.

Being awaken in the night over and over isn't good for your rest. The worse problem is what woke you up, if it's sleep apnea, it means you stopped breathing. That means low O2 stats, and the heart over working trying to deal with the jolt and low O2.

As far as the machine you were given, you can buy what you want online, the overall cost isn't more than cutting out one vice we all have, and would be better off without. It might extend your life. Jim

Jim - he isn't being woken up "over and over" and apnea isn't waking him, but his wife ! I really don't think the one-time disturbance will seriously threaten his treatment, let alone his life, though it probably isn't a very good idea either, especially taking REM sleep into account. If your wife's getting up incidentally wakes you (rather than that she purposely does so the first time), then maybe you need to think about getting one of those beds where neither side is impacted by what the other does. But I do wonder about her awakening you the second time. If it's that necessary every day for it to happen (and for you to get to work), maybe you should be going to bed earlier to begin with, because you should protect your sleep cycle as much as possible, and allow yourself to awaken naturally after a certain number of hours if possible, but if you routinely go to bed late, and then have to be woken every a.m., I'm not sure that's a very good thing.

I'm one of the "anyone else" (from the subject title of this topic) not a sleep expert...

I agree with Julie. Very well said. Tweaking your sleep hygiene might be in order now. See if going to bed a little (or a lot?) earlier makes it possible to simply wake up on your own in the morning, instead of having to be waked up by your wife.

fedupwithit wrote:I am one of those poor souls-or the only one!-who has the non data recording Resmed(?) Plus machine so I can not give you any data.

If the machine says "Plus" in its name, it's a Respironics machine, not a ResMed machine. Those "R" names are easily mixed up, I know. I have to stop and think about it each time, and I can still get 'em wrong sometimes.

Anyway, you're a "better off" soul than the poor souls who don't even know they have sleep apnea and have no machine at all. And you're a "better off" soul than the poor souls who do have machines but quit using them.

While it's better (imho) to have a machine that can give you info about effective your treatment is going (leak and AHI - apnea/hypopnea index data) you and your "alarm" (your wife) probably have a pretty good idea about how your treatment is going.

If she is not hearing you snore, and if she's noticing you have more energy in general and...

if you feel better than before CPAP...

then the therapy is probably going well for you, even though there are no treatment results recorded by your machine.

As I'm sure you know, a card stuck in a machine doesn't mean that machine records "full data." Basic machines can have a card just to record basic compliance info...just "hours of use" like the Respironics "Plus", the ResMed "Compact" and "Escape", and every Fisher & Paykel CPAP machines do.

If you decide to ever get a second machine or the time comes that your insurance will pay for a new machine, here's a list of the some that record useful data and those that don't:

My list of machines that record "full data" (AHI and leak info) and those that don't -- as of October 2008:
viewtopic.php?p=307168#p307168

DME might not understand what "Full data" is.
viewtopic.php?p=344265#p344265

goofproof (Jim) is right about buying a machine online being less expensive.

cpapauction.com , a Craig's list in your area, amazon.com... those are good places to keep an eye out for a bargain. Or a brandnew machine from cpap.com

fedupwithit wrote:Is it "bad" to be woken up during a sleep cycle? .......

Fed,

There is some good research showing you will feel much better all morning if you awaken from a light sleep as compared to awakening from a deep sleep. One of the very good things about retirement for me is no more alarm clocks! I just get up when I feel like it, which generally is sometime between six and seven. This seems to make a big difference for me.

There is a device, http://www.sleeptracker.com/how-it-works.html , that tries to capitalize on this.

But I agree with others, that the most important priority for any CPAPer is to get a data-capable machine/card reader/software. Getting your therapy working properly will have a much larger payoff than adjusting the "alarm clock".

Good luck,

fedupwithit,
Right now I am in the same situation as you are. My Fisher & Paykel unit is not equipped to have data producing software. It is frustrating to me, because my first machine was a ResMed 8 Elite ll. I didn't have the software, because my Dr was considering changing my machine. But. . . I could read the LCD read-out and get an idea of what my stats were.

I had a nasal condition that required super humidity, and my Dr changed me to a Fisher & Pykel 608 - F&P produces top rated humidifiers . Using the humidifier healed my nose, but I have no idea how my therapy is doing. I compare it to caring for diabetes without the equipment to measure your blood sugar.

I don't get the results of my titration back until July 9th - I am going to wait until then to buy my own data capable machine. It is going to cost more $$ than I like, but unless I know my Sleep Apnea is being treated properly, my machine is useless to me.

I'm saving my bucks - maybe to save my life.

I wish you well - it is a hard decision. Jan

MTCW, fedupwithit - I think I understand the question to be, "Am I getting any real value from the sleep I have after I get awakened in the morning for the first time, since it's only one hour or less?"

My answer would be: Possibly. Your sleep cycles vary in length and competition. The average length of a sleep cycle is usually over an hour, but that varies a lot by individual and time of night. The latest sleep cycles in your night's sleep have little or no stage 3 sleep. So you can move more directly into REM without following the usual patterns of stage 1-2-3-2-1-Rem. (or at least, mine seems to) So it's possible that you are still getting quality sleep during that hour or less.

Do you find you are dreaming when you are awakened?

fedupwithit wrote:Is it "bad" to be woken up during a sleep cycle?

I've read that interrupted sleep cycles, typically 90 mins long, is not good for one's health. Now, that said, I naturally sleep 8 hrs which my calculator says is 5.333333 cycles making no sense to me, so maybe there is wiggle room in the length of these cycles. I have found that if I fall back to sleep right away it does not seem to affect me as long as it was not an event that awakened me. I've been having what I'm sure are events so even if I fall asleep again, I'm tired the next day. This not having a full data-capable machine really sucks.

I see twasbrillig answered this.

WOW! You can see who's still sleep deprived
"Your sleep cycles vary in length and competition." - correction: COMPOSITION!

I think the idea is that you feel better when you wake naturally. But I don't think it actually harms you to use an alarm or have someone wake you in mid-cycle. I would love to actually have a real night's sleep and do this experiment.

fedupwithit wrote:Is it "bad" to be woken up during a sleep cycle? If I understand correctly, most(some?) people go through several stages of sleep ending with REM sleep then wake up and go back to sleep starting the cycle over again several times a nite(this happens to me). Is that correct?

If that is true, my main question is this. I frequently wake up about an hour or less before my alarm(ie:the wife) wakes me up in the morning. I usually fall asleep again before the "alarm" goes off and wakes me up. Should I just get up and start my day when I naturally wake up or wait to be woken up?

I am one of those poor souls-or the only one!-who has the non data recording Resmed(?) Plus machine so I can not give you any data.

Fedupwithit,
I think what you are describing is very normal. I do notice a difference between week days (when I know I have to get up ) & weekends when I don't.
On week days I regularly wake up around 3am & then a couple more times (but # of wakeups does seem to depend on which machine I am using).
On Fri & Sat night - I still will wake but only once or twice.

What I do notice is that when I wake (week days) I can feel quite awake but find it easy to go right off to sleep again.

I am sure many of us go through this.

Good luck

DSM

Very interesting discussion. I have no two nights that are ever alike. Last night, for instance, I had a hard time falling asleep. (Warm bedroom, first night this season, its finally getting hot out here!) I did finally fall asleep, and I can see it on my pressure curves. I think pressure wakes me up occasionally, but just as often, it seems to be a completed 'sleep cycle'. I am a light sleeper as it is, and CPAP has helped me have deeper 'lows' in my sleep cycles-- but not always.

If I awaken after a dream, I try to make a note of the time so I can look at my data the next day. Sometimes, but not always, I see a cluster of hypopneas during what I suspect is REM sleep. I have been looking at used electroencephalagraph machines so I can record some sleep brain activity, and perhaps learn something from it.

Towards morning, I had a strong (but not vivid) dream. (I dreamed about buying a DSLR camera in a Las Vegas casino!) There was a corresponding pressure bump on my data. For me, these late-in-the-night dreams are not unusual, even before I started CPAP. A couple of mornings ago, I awoke about 6 AM, and fell asleep again, and dreamed. The next morning, my alarm awoke me at 7 AM. I set another alarm for 7:30 AM. I woke up to the alarm 'just five minutes' later. To me, this meant I was experiencing deeper stage sleep. So, as far as I am concerned, the late-in-the-night sleep is important. If I can get away with it, I do not get up until I can stay awake, laying on my side, for 15 minutes.

timbalionguy wrote: ........So, as far as I am concerned, the late-in-the-night sleep is important. .....

Yes, it is all important. In normal sleep, there is much REM during the last few hours. The function of REM is not understood by science, but it seems to be the mind sorting and filing things in order to make sense of them and remember them later on. This is a very important function for our mental and physical well being.

Consistent with what science says, it is clear to me that if I awaken from REM or light sleep, I feel much better than being awakened from SWS by an alarm or spouse.