Vietnam era vets: critically needed medical testing

Deerslayer, I appreciated your "THANK YOU VETS" thread (currently on page 2... a good read). I'm posting this separately only because it focuses on Vietnam era vets. First, though, I want to add my thanks to EVERY military veteran for your service. Doesn't matter to me if you enlisted or were drafted; you went, and I'm grateful.

As a child of the 60s, I particularly have a heart for those who served in the Vietnam War. IMO, everyone who served in the Allied Forces during that time deserves our deepest respect and gratitude for his/her service, no matter what our thoughts might be about any political ramifications of that war. Just my opinion.

I want to share info about critically important (and free) testing and treatment that’s available from the VA for Vietnam era veterans, including medical corps personnel. There's also info for those who developed PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) during that time.

Through a former job, I became familiar with an excellent nonprofit organization known as The Order of the Silver Rose. OSR has an extremely informative Website here: http://www.silverrose.info. Looking at it is well worth anyone’s time, but especially anyone who is or knows someone who may have been exposed to AO or who deals with PTSD. Another “must see” is the VA’s AO Website: http://www1.va.gov/Agentorange, and particularly its Agent Orange Handbook (see the first screen in that Website). Here are some things I learned:

-- Anyone who's familiar with AO knows this: Because Vietnam's dense jungle vegetation and canopy concealed ground movement, millions of gallons of chemical defoliants containing dioxin (generally known as Agent Orange) were sprayed over large areas of the country, saving thousands of Allied lives by enabling Allied troops to visualize enemy forces and armaments. What I'd never thought about, though, was that the AO traveled far beyond the intended targets into “friendly” territory through the movement of air and water. It settled on military and nonmilitary people alike, as well as their water and food supplies, and eventually caused long-term, even fatal, medical conditions. Men and women are dying daily from them, and early diagnosis is critical.

-- The VA has made this official, legal presumption: (1) Anyone who even stepped one foot on the soil of Vietnam or served on a ship that was in the waters around the Mekong Delta from 1962 until 1975 in a US military capacity, regardless of length of service, is presumed to have been exposed to AO; (2) AO exposure causes more than forty types of cancer and other illnesses, including Diabetes II; and (3) any of those illnesses diagnosed in any of those people qualifies as being "service related." Vets who were there are entitled to free testing AND treatment for those illnesses. Other veterans benefits may also be available to the vet AND his/her family (even if the vet is deceased, by my understanding). Those who served in Korea during 1968/1969 or elsewhere at any time and were exposed to AO in a US military capacity also qualify upon proof of AO exposure.

-- To date, in spite of the VA presumption, if a vet contracts any of these illnesses, it doesn't qualify as a "friendly fire" injury, and the vet is given no military recognition or decoration for his/her sacrifice.

The OSR confers its Silver Rose Award (a certificate and medal; completely free of charge) upon qualifying US military personnel and will do so until the US government decides to honor them. You can read the story behind the OSR's establishment by selecting “Origin of the Silver Rose” in the organization’s Website. It's a heartbreaker. As Gary Chenett, OSR National Director, explains in the OSR mission statement:

We have 2 primary goals. The first is to warn every Vietnam Veteran that a simple yearly physical with CT scans could easily save their lives, or at the very least lengthen many, hopefully by one or more of these heroes receiving an early diagnosis of their illness in time for treatment before one of these appalling cancers is found to be in a terminal state.

Sadly, so few Veterans know of these dangers from Dioxin exposure and other biological chemicals. That is one reason the death toll is so high.

Our second and final goal is to see that every Vietnam Veteran is brought honors and recognition for their sacrifices, regardless of whether they are living or deceased, due to these exposures. Until the day arrives that our own Government decides to honor these victims, we will continue to offer the prestigious Silver Rose Award gratis to all eligible Vietnam Veterans or their families.

We are only asking for simple justice for these victims.

At this time we are the only group in America seeking to bring the Silver Rose Certificate and Medal along with Honors and Remembrances to every one of these Heroes who qualifies. We are very proud to have presented thousands of gratis awards. We will dissolve the Silver Rose the moment the Government finally recognizes this injustice and recognizes the victims of Dioxin, chemical and biological illnesses and deaths with the awarding of the Silver Rose or a medal of similar distinction. Until then we shall continue on our mission.

Gary knows what he's talking about. In Vietnam from 1967 until 1968, he was a US Army APC machine gunner, fought in the first Tet Offensive among other battles, was wounded in Vietnam, has three times survived cancers caused by AO exposure, including brain and lung cancer, and lives with PTSD. And a nicer or more supportive person you'll never meet.

Silver Rose Award applications are in the OSR Website. The award is NOT conferred upon those who were merely exposed to AO; that would be everyone who served. It's intended to take the place of the Purple Heart until such time as the US government decides that the Purple Heart is deserved by Vietnam era vets who became ill or even died because of their own government's military action. (again, ) The OSR also offers a tremendous amount of information and assistance for anyone regarding testing for/treatment of the VA-recognized illnesses or PTSD. The OSR is entirely nonprofit. Volunteered time or money (tax deductible) is gratefully accepted.

Once again, to all vets who served anywhere, anytime... thank you, and welcome home!!

Marsha

[EDIT#1 & #3 -- please read carefully; the edit's been edited (aargh!!): After posting this, I was told by Gary Chenett, National Director of the Order of the Silver Rose, that the VA changed its policy about who's included in its automatic presumption of who's been exposed to AO. I fixed the text, above. However, Gary said any who are not included in the VA's approved group should still file a VA claim, because it could possibly reverse its decision in the future. He also said the OSR definitely will give the Silver Rose Award to anyone in the VA's approved group AND Navy personnel who served in any waters surrounding Vietnam and contracted one of the VA-recognized illnesses.

EDIT #2: Gary's had three cancers, not two, including brain and lung cancer. All due to AO exposure. The text has been changed above.]

BLESS YOUR HEART SONGBIRD thank you for sharing that great info !(cyber bear hug -inserted here) ...i happened to be @ our local Harley Dealer yesterday wearing my black skull cap with the MIA-POW logo ...as i was looking out to the street, three rolling thunder brothers going to join the Vets parade in Nashville came rumbling to a stop at a traffic light. the lead bike was flying a large black POW-MIA flag. while waiting at the light , the second brother in line locked eyes with me. he stared for a couple seconds then snapped a salute which i promptly returned.......just like we are all connected on this cyber page, that moment deeply moved me... & every night when i hear of another IED did it's job, you have to think how under appreciated these kids are & were. tim

deerslayer wrote:BLESS YOUR HEART SONGBIRD thank you for sharing that great info !(cyber bear hug -inserted here) ...i happened to be @ our local Harley Dealer yesterday wearing my black skull cap with the MIA-POW logo ...as i was looking out to the street, three rolling thunder brothers going to join the Vets parade in Nashville came rumbling to a stop at a traffic light. the lead bike was flying a large black POW-MIA flag. while waiting at the light , the second brother in line locked eyes with me. he stared for a couple seconds then snapped a salute which i promptly returned.......just like we are all connected on this cyber page, that moment deeply moved me...

Bigger, longer, stronger cyber bear-hug for YOU, Tim. I assume you earned that skull cap or you know some/someone who did, and I'm heartbroken to hear it. I'm so glad you made it back. I hope you're okay... as okay as anyone who went through such a horrible time could be. That must have been such a special moment yesterday. People like me (who weren't there) can never truly understand. No book, no movie, no news report can ever actually communicate it.

deerslayer wrote:... & every night when i hear of another IED did it's job, you have to think how under appreciated these kids are & were.

Yes. The work I did in relation to the OSR was to write legislative citations for members of the Pennsylvania General Assembly to present to Silver Rose awardees. (If interested, you can see ones I wrote for House members by going to http://www.silverrose.info/congressional_record.htm and selecting "Pennsylvania Certificate & Endorsement for Living Silver Rose Victims" or "Pennsylvania Certificate & Endorsement for Deceased Silver Rose Victims.") Our office wrote citations for all kinds of people who accomplished great things, but we also wrote condolence resolutions, which members of the GA presented to the families of people with some sort of civic service who died. Members of the military were in that category. I've written a lot of condolence resolutions and cried a lot of tears for those kids. One I'll never forget was a 19-year-old who lay back onto a grenade that had been thrown into his Humvee and in doing so, saved the other four in the Humvee. He would have had time to jump out and save himself, but he chose to save the others. He was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Under appreciated? Yes, absolutely. We (meaning US civilians generally) have no idea.

At any rate, thanks for your kind words. And especially for your honorable service.

Marsha

One of the absurdities of the Mekong Delta only classification is that there are a lot more waterways in Vietnam that were defoliated than even the coastal waters.....
I was in Northern I Corps on both the Cua Viet River sometimes well north of the Dong Ha bridge and the Perfume River from Tan My to Hue (and beyond). I can distinctly remember the C-130's flying over spraying the defoliant -- on us as well as the surrounding jungle. This was in 1969 and 1970.
It just adds to the denial factor by the government. They'd just as soon forget the whole thing occurred.....I gave up on those shortsighted bas***ds a lot of years ago. Life goes on......

Deerslayer, Songbird, et.al. -- Thank you for your kind words of thanks and recognition. It means a lot to me, and I'm sure to all veterans of all wars!!!!

cheers
goose

Marsha , thank you for your compassion toward our service men & women. i didn't attend our local high schools tribute to our vets this year, last year was my first & it was AWESOME ! after all these years have passed with little if any praise or acknowledgment for any sacrifices (not that any were expected) & after being discharged in 1968 , feeling like a dog that had been kicked because of the political sentiment of the war. not at all treated like the "greatest generation"wwII troops. .....We can still say we stood the post American Legion Post 206 White House, TN. God Bless our men & women in harms way ..tim

Reading this is like opening old wounds. How many Vets ever get fair treatment from the VA. Those in power brag of how they honor and take care of the combat Vets. Unfortunately for me and my family I was an unwilling participant. I was drafted in the larges call up in April 1965 and ended up in Viet Nam, “A war with NO Gain and plenty of pain.” At that time the saying among the troops was, “When I die I can’t go to Hell. I am already there.” Another one referred to getting out of line or disobeying was, “What are they going to do, send me to Viet Nam??”

I have dealt with a number of health problems some of which appear to be service related. The worst, of which I have never had any treatment is PTS. I have suppressed it for years but it caused family problems and led to divorce. I drank heavily for years. I am not a fighting person but I got in a couple violent confrontations that could have turned deadly. That scared me into avoiding conflicts. By now I have learned to live with my feelings and avoid situations which bring our extreme stress, anger or fear.

I applied to VA and got a minimum check for my trouble. I feel it an insult to get $117 per month. It angers me for the Vets who suffer more pain than I and get little or no help, especially the homeless Vet who can not cope. I have been in the VA hospitals and see how they treat the Vets. Tell Me, the VA helps Vets when our country has used them up and spit them out like trash. Only private parties and Vets try to help the Vets.

Sorry for my ranting.
Ted

goose wrote:One of the absurdities of the Mekong Delta only classification is that there are a lot more waterways in Vietnam that were defoliated than even the coastal waters.....

You're right... that's totally absurd.

goose wrote:I was in Northern I Corps on both the Cua Viet River sometimes well north of the Dong Ha bridge and the Perfume River from Tan My to Hue (and beyond). I can distinctly remember the C-130's flying over spraying the defoliant -- on us as well as the surrounding jungle. This was in 1969 and 1970.

It just adds to the denial factor by the government. They'd just as soon forget the whole thing occurred.....I gave up on those shortsighted bas***ds a lot of years ago. Life goes on......

Bits and pieces from a 2008 scientific report posted by the Vietnam Agent Orange Relief & Responsibility Campaign (http://www.vn-agentorange.org/):
-- Known as Operation Ranch Hand, the AO campaign was originally called Project Hades.
-- AO was sprayed at 6 to 25 times the rate suggested by the manufacurer.
-- More than 30 years later, Vietnam's soil and water are still contaminated. Recent studies around Da Nang found dioxin levels 300-400 times higher than internationally accepted limits.
-- AO exposure so invades the system that it can be/has been carried through the system, causing severe birth defects and illnesses -- some fatal -- in the children of the one who was exposed. (forgot to include that in my original post)

And as I'm sure you know, our "beloved" government continues the horrors by using uranium-tipped munitions in the Middle East, and right now, today, countless numbers of our troops have been/are being poisoned with radiation-laden "dirty" bombs. There are even reports that the radiation has poisoned/is poisoning European countries, as far away as the British Isles. I don't know how reliable the reports are, but I can see how that would happen.

goose wrote:Thank you for your kind words of thanks and recognition. It means a lot to me, and I'm sure to all veterans of all wars!!!!

No words are sufficient to communicate the depth of gratitude that's owed to you and all the others, Goose. None. But THANK YOU. I'm glad you made it home.

Marsha

Ted, you have every right to rant. you speak from the heart. we can never forget. every time i hear the old songs-all along the watch tower, fortunate son/it ain't me , purple haze, run through the jungle , ohio,etc. it all comes rushing back. you have to let the rage out. the first thing they ask now at our local VA hospital is do you suffer from PTSD. i was never in country, only combat support taking care of the monkey killers & toothpick makers . four years of S.A.C. God bless, tim

deerslayer wrote:... after all these years have passed with little if any praise or acknowledgment for any sacrifices (not that any were expected) & after being discharged in 1968 , feeling like a dog that had been kicked because of the political sentiment of the war. not at all treated like the "greatest generation"wwII troops.

I think of myself as a patriotic peace child, which means I totally agreed with those who said we had no business over there, but at the same time it made no sense to me to hate the guys in the military.... it was our ****** government that was making the decisions. So although I hated the war, I always supported, cared about, prayed for our troops. That never struck me as a crazy way of looking at things, and I wish that others who were against the war could have seen it that way.

Marsha

deerslayer wrote:... feeling like a dog that had been kicked because of the political sentiment of the war

Songbird wrote:I think of myself as a patriotic peace child, which means I totally agreed with those who said we had no business over there, but at the same time it made no sense to me to hate the guys in the military.... it was our ****** government that was making the decisions. So although I hated the war, I always supported, cared about, prayed for our troops. That never struck me as a crazy way of looking at things, and I wish that others who were against the war could have seen it that way.

Yes, people let their feelings about that war keep them from respecting and appreciating those who fought it in. That's one reason Steve Earle's "Johnny Come Lately" is one of the covers I play at gigs--and one reason I respect Earle so much: his songs make it clear what we owe the men and women who fight, even if we dislike our government's policy.

Thanks, Songbird, for posting this info. My father-in-law as there, and while he wasn't in combat zones per se, he was stationed close enough to the airfields so that when the C130s came home, the leftover AO they had on board and dumped before landing wound affecting him and his health. I get the impression he's been luckier than most in getting diagnosed. But there are far too many who haven't been that fortunate.

Thanks again, Marsha, and thanks, too, to the men and women who served then and serve now.

Nath

Hey Ted,
Dude -- rant away!!!!! It's part of being here.....

I can say from my own personal experience -- find a group of guys that can relate and rant. Listen to their rants. Commiserate. What helped me immensely was to just open up. I just decided that it wasn't doing me any good to hold it in, so I let it out!!!!! Tell the stories. If people can't relate -- okfine......Sometimes the looks I get when I tell mine are priceless.....People who weren't there can't and never will be able to relate -- tell them anyway. It needs to be known....

I won't get into my own experiences with the VA.....You are soooooooooo right!!!!

Thanks for your service "bro". Welcome home
cheers
goose

Disalusioned Vet wrote:Reading this is like opening old wounds.

I thought long and hard before starting this, because I knew it would cause pain. I'm so sorry it hurts, Ted. But when I weighed that possibility against not saying anything about the medical risks -- something that so many know nothing about -- I decided to go ahead and post it, hoping those who'd have a hard time reading it would understand and forgive.

Disalusioned Vet wrote:How many Vets ever get fair treatment from the VA. Those in power brag of how they honor and take care of the combat Vets.

How I wish what you said wasn't true, but I know it is, and it makes me sick.

Disalusioned Vet wrote: Unfortunately for me and my family I was an unwilling participant. I was drafted in the larges call up in April 1965 and ended up in Viet Nam, “A war with NO Gain and plenty of pain.” At that time the saying among the troops was, “When I die I can’t go to Hell. I am already there.” Another one referred to getting out of line or disobeying was, “What are they going to do, send me to Viet Nam??”

I know many think "unwilling participants" don't deserve any thanks or breaks because they didn't enlist. IMO, it took just as much patriotism and perhaps even more courage for those who were unwilling to go anyway. In my book, that more than qualifies as "honorable service." THANK YOU, Ted, for your very honorable service. I'm so glad you made it back.

Disalusioned Vet wrote:I have dealt with a number of health problems some of which appear to be service related. The worst, of which I have never had any treatment is PTS. I have suppressed it for years but it caused family problems and led to divorce. I drank heavily for years. I am not a fighting person but I got in a couple violent confrontations that could have turned deadly. That scared me into avoiding conflicts. By now I have learned to live with my feelings and avoid situations which bring our extreme stress, anger or fear.

I applied to VA and got a minimum check for my trouble. I feel it an insult to get $117 per month. It angers me for the Vets who suffer more pain than I and get little or no help, especially the homeless Vet who can not cope. I have been in the VA hospitals and see how they treat the Vets. Tell Me, the VA helps Vets when our country has used them up and spit them out like trash. Only private parties and Vets try to help the Vets.

Ted (and others reading this who are dealing with PTSD), please take a look at this page, written by Gary Chenett (he's the one from the Order of the Silver Rose): http://www.silverrose.info/ptsd_information.htm. It's loaded with information and very practical suggestions about PTSD, applying for disability due to PTSD, etc. Once you've gone over it, if you still have questions or could use some one-on-one assistance, write to Gary. He has PTSD and knows tons about it. He also knows his way around the "system" very well. Gary's on permanent disability and has made helping vets his life's work. We've been friends for a few years, and I know he loves nothing more than helping vets any way he can, even if it's just offering conversation from somebody who truly understands what it's like. Here's a blurb about him:

[Gary] is 100% disabled (P & T) as a combat veteran... had 3 AO-related cancer surgeries... is rated for these surgeries and PTSD as he served with the Big Red One 1/st of the 4th Calvary as an M-60 gunner on an APC. He served in the first Tet and was one of only 2 men from his unit to not receive the Purple Heart during his tour in Vietnam (2/67-2/68)

Gary's email address (posted in the OSR Website) is fuzzyfrog@intouchmi.com. Tell him Marsha from PA sent you.

And if you haven't had a comprehensive physical with CT scans (the CT scans are critically important) within the past twelve months, I hope you will. I was talking with Gary last night, and he said about 300 Vietnam vets are dying every day from AO exposure-caused illnesses that weren't caught in time. I know the VA medical system's a bitch to deal with (I do know that... my ex-husband had a number of admissions in the VA hospital nearest here, and it was pretty awful), but just like sleep apnea, this is your life we're talking about.

Disalusioned Vet wrote:Sorry for my ranting.

Ted, another name for this forum could be Ranting 'r' Us. You're going to have to try a lot harder to approach the level of some rants I've read here. I'd be willing to bet you were getting a lot of amens as others here were reading it.

Take good care of yourself....
Marsha

nightjar wrote:My father-in-law was there, and while he wasn't in combat zones per se, he was stationed close enough to the airfields so that when the C130s came home, the leftover AO they had on board and dumped before landing wound up affecting him and his health. I get the impression he's been luckier than most in getting diagnosed. But there are far too many who haven't been that fortunate.

I'm so sorry your father-in-law got sick, Nath, but like you said, it's good that he's at least been diagnosed. If he hasn't already been presented with a Silver Rose Award (more than 3,700 have been presented since 1997; you can check for his name here: http://www.silverrose.info/Pg1%20honore ... ients.html) you could apply for it on his behalf. The application form is here: http://www.silverrose.info/print_application.htm, and as it says on the form, you'd need his DD-214 and medical records showing he was diagnosed with one of the AO-related illnesses. I'm not certain it's always done this way, but my impression is that presentation ceremonies are set up a few times a year. I do know it's a very nice, professionally produced award, and it's meant a lot to those who have already received it.

Marsha

I thought some might find this interesting. It's a Pennsylvania House Resolution which was introduced, declaring December 2, 2008, as "Order of the Silver Rose Day" in Pennsylvania. Hopefully, it will be passed soon. A similar one was passed last year, as well as resolutions both last year and this year declaring October as Agent Orange Recognition Month in Pennsylvania. http://ldpc6.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/L ... 67&pn=4288

Resolutions like this are important for a couple of reasons....

-- They draw attention to the present-day risk of sickness or death for thousands of US citizens and the need for annual physicals and CT scans that could result in early detection and, hopefully, cure before it's too late.

-- Once adopted, a copy goes to the US President. That in and of itself isn't all that impressive, because a bazillion things are sent to him every day. Also, for this year, there's the fact that he won't be there very much longer. But it's the Feds that need to be convinced in order to get long-overdue honors and recognition for so many of our Vietnam vets. Efforts like this (which are being made by many states) add to the pressure pile, pushing the US government to acknowledge that AO-caused sickness or death qualifies as "injury due to friendly fire" and therefore entitles those who have been affected to be awarded the Purple Heart.

Marsha

goose wrote:One of the absurdities of the Mekong Delta only classification is that there are a lot more waterways in Vietnam that were defoliated than even the coastal waters.....

Goose, I missed this part of your first reply, but now that it actually penetrated my brain, it's clear my original post could have been worded better. The VA's automatic presumption group includes everyone who set even one foot on the soil of Vietnam for even one second (I actually read that somewhere) -- anywhere in the country.

The "Mekong Delta-only classification" that you mentioned does NOT mean those who were in the MD area are the only ones to be presumed to have been exposed to AO. The change I mentioned in Edit #1 is this: In addition to anyone who actually set foot on the soil of Vietnam, it USED TO also include any Navy personnel who were on ANY ships that were in ANY of the waters surrounding the country but never set foot on the soil of Vietnam.

NOW, in addition to anyone who actually set foot on the soil of Vietnam, it ONLY includes Navy personnel who were on ships that were in the waters around the Mekong Delta but never set foot on the soil of Vietnam. (Please don't ask me to defend that. IMO, such a distinction is indefensible. )

I hope that's clearer. I went back and reworded my original post. (Let's see... uuuh... that would be Edit #3. ) If any of my wording is at all confusing to anyone, please let me know. Thanks a lot!!

Now for a cpaptalk.com kind of disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor am I familiar enough with the US government's rulings for anyone to take my word as "gospel." I've posted the most up-to-date info to the best of my knowledge. That's all. And it appears that this "waters" distinction isn't settled by any reach of the imagination, so anyone who reads this needs to remember that it can change from one day to the next. I'd say that the recommendation by Gary Chenett of the OSR is the best: If you were there, even on a ship not in waters around the Mekong Delta, apply for a complete physical and CT scans. If you're denied, don't just forget about it. Pursue it. I'd start with the OSR.

And just as many of us have learned in SA-related issues, if you are denied benefits, PLEASE DON'T WAIT FOR THE VA TO COME THROUGH. If you can find any way of affording it, get the complete physical and CT scans. Your life is worth FAR more than winning an argument with the VA.

The primary challenge to the "waters" question was a court suit commonly referred to as the Haas Case (there are others). This site has an up-to-date summary of its history and current status: http://www.bluewaternavy.org/briefsummary.htm

This site has much info for Navy personnel in particular about Agent Orange as well as other medical hazards that may have been encountered: http://www.bluewaternavy.org/ Within that site, this seems to be especially important: http://www.bluewaternavy.org/nowhear.htm)

Here are more articles about the "Blue Water Navy":
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... 0&pt=print
http://www.veteransinfo.org/id15.html


This post has a ton of links to AO-related articles and info:
http://www.veteransinfo.org/id4.html

Marsha