NO DELTA SLEEP????

OK - all these people showing their sleep study stats made me go back and look at mine. I thought the main purpose of the CPAP was to get you to REM sleep (especially since I didn't have any while supine even on CPAP). But, came to find out that the most important stage of sleep is 3/4 or Delta. That's the most restful kind.

Wellllll ... my study (split nite) showed 0.0% Stage 3/4 sleep before and AFTER -- ok folks, how bad is that???

Here are the numbers:



And what's with the PLM's being higher after CPAP? I know I have RLS but I don't know how I got *ANY* sleep with that many PLM's!!! Plus, this was problbly one of my worst RLS nights ever (during the sleep study).

Your results are typical. OSA events can kick you out of deep sleep or REM. So now that your OSA events are being addressed with CPAP, your titration doesn't look any better for deep sleep (Stage 3 &4).

So what did your sleep doctor say about that?

If you are like most, absolutely NOTHING or they brush it under the rug as being "insignificant". Guess what is most likely keeping you from getting Deep Sleep?

My guess is those 70 per hour PLM's. Probably every time you go to get into Deep sleep, one of those leg kicks bounce you out of it so you are back to Stage 1/2 or REM, anyplace but Deep Sleep.

My suggestion:

Research magnesium, calcium and melatonin. Hopefully, the magnesium will settle down the neuro kicks, melatonin put will you into deeper sleep than you are getting now. If you don't read any, read at least the 2 top links:

Some links for you to read:
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplemen ... nincs.html
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2003-rst/1937.html

Some of the data contained in this webpage appears to have come from the early data I have also read, the importance of it shows how our melatonin levels peak throughout the day:
http://www.ceri.com/melaton.htm

So if you have a normal day/night sleep schedule, our natural melatonin levels peak at about 2AM and decline until morning when you wake up. So if you are taking medication which impacts your normal ability to produce melatonin (and many do), what may happen to your ability to sleep?

And lastly, compare the adverse side effects of melatonin to any other prescription drug's side effects such as Ambien or Lunesta.

Here are some others:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113832.htm
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/sad-melatonin.cfm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1407707
http://www.xagena.it/news/medicinenews_ ... 9bcbc.html



While we all don't traverse through our sleep Stages as shown in the graph above, if you did, and are not getting any deep sleep where will you land or spend most of your time? You can also see why you spend more time in REM as the early morning hours approach. Granted we all get less deep and REM as we get older, but you are not old enough yet to get zero. It won't be easy, but work on reducing those leg movements. If you can settle those down you may get some Deep Sleep and possibly feel some restorative effects from sleep.

That chart came out of one of my medical books, don't think it was green eggs and ham, but if that chart is even remotely accurate, if you don't get into deep sleep from sleep onset you will get less as the night progresses even if you are "Normal". That graph represents what Normal would/should be.

Confine your research into getting more deep sleep, in order to do that you have to reduce those PLM related arousals (your doctors are not going to do it for you).

You are correct in that the doc didn't address either the doubling of PLM's after CPAP or the absence of 3/4 sleep. All he seemed concerned about in his reporting was that I didn't get to REM sleep on back and therefore needed to be retitrated in 30 days. I told him I'm a side/stomach sleeper anyway - find it almost impossible to sleep on back so he said "well then, never mind..."

Unfortunately I didn't know then what I know now. I thought REM was what was most needed when actually the most beneficial sleep is 3/4 from what I read, even though very little time is spent in it.

Thanks for the wonderful graph!

I know the PLMs drive me nuts. Really they were what was keeping me up more than anything else during non CPAP stage of the study. It felt like I didn't sleep at all for the first 3+ hours. I finally gave up and asked the tech to bring me some water so I could take more Klonopin to help settle them down and that's when she also brought in the CPAP. Well, obviously the Klonopin didn't help calm the legs!

I have tried Quinine before (you know the OTC leg cramp stuff) but I believe you were the one who said it is now banned by the FDA. I have started taking my iron supplements w/500 mg C twice a day (I'm an RNY patient so need to take double the iron/C) again. I had stopped when they made me stop for the Colonoscopy to find out if my anemia was caused by internal bleeding. It wasn't. Just the after effects of RNY and never taking my vitamins catching up to me!

Heck, I'm even trying the Ivory soap bar trick -- anything for help!

I should get enough calcium - I'm a HUGE milk drinker - and I'll try the Magnesium too.

I love your posts Snoredog - You are such a knowledgable person and so willing to help us! Love your tag line too

Linda

Stages 3 and 4 are important? Really?

Don't I know, I seem to be going reverse of you. My first sleep study (2 years ago) was inconclusive on the apnea thing, because I had so many PLMs that kicked in (pun intended) that apparently superceded the apnic events that they couldn't treat the apnea.

Spent months trying different things to get PLMs under control, currently on combo of tamazipam and requip. Sleep study done 2 years ago showed soemthing like 200 PLMs during 300 minutes of sleep. Never reached stages 3&4, and only like 4% in REM.

In Feb did next sleep study, still a high amount of PLMs, but reduced enough that they were able to determine moderate to high apnea, and hence I now have bi-level pap.

Doing both meds for PLM and xpap, one thing I can tell you is that I am dreaming again. It's wild considering I seemed to practically never dream for years and years. Hopefully, and I think I am, I might finally be spending at least a few minutes in 3&4 on my way to REM.

Stages3n4,

You crack me up! Now I understand your username too :duh:

I really feel for you - you sound much worse than me! At least during the study I was already on Klonopin for RLS. Resisted taking more cause I didn't want it to affect the outcome but couldn't stand the kicking! Usually the Klonopin works well unless I've had an excessive amount of coffee RIGHT before bed or taken some Sudafed or under a ton of stress.

Well, we can rule out the Caffeine - couldn't have any coffee for 12 hours before - thought I would die from the headache and there was no Sudafed either so maybe it was just the stress of the situation. I was so tired and ready to go to sleep when I got to the clinic. My body just wouldn't cooperate!!!

Here's to kickin' the kickin' habit

Linda

About the PLM's, it is not so unusual for them to worsen after getting on cpap treatment. They were probably always there waiting to break thru, and stopping the apnea arousals allowed them to. I'm wondering about the effectiveness of your treatment for them if you were on meds during these studies. Besides, what works for RLS may not be effective for PLMD. And I've read on here before that some antidepressants can make movements worse. Maybe someone who knows more about that will chime in. Best wishes in calming those legs down so you can begin to get some real sleep.
Kathy