On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue1
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by robysue1 » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:49 am

And now on to talking more explicitly about EPR.

EPR is supposed to be a comfort feature. Many people, particularly new users, find it difficult to exhale fully against xPAP pressure. EPR reduces the pressure on exhalation and increases it when you start to inhale. EPR can be set to 1, 2, or 3, and the number represents the decrease in pressure measured in cmH2O. On the Resmed machines, the mask pressure graph gives you a good look at exactly how EPR works with the Resmed "EasyBreathe" algorithm. Here's a screenshot from my husband's Resmed data:

Image

His EPR = 2, and the spikes in the Mask Pressure graph are 2cm high. The stuff between the two red lines is one breath---in other words, one inhalation/exhalation cycle. The green line is drawn at the the boundary between his inhalation and his exhalation. As my husband is inhaling, the pressure increases from his current "EPAP" of about 6.2cm to an "IPAP" of about 8.2cm. The peak mask pressure (i.e. full IPAP) occurs right at the end of his exhalation. The pressure rather quickly drops back to "EPAP" of about 6.2 during the first half of his exhalation. The pressure starts to increase once his inhalation is detected.

At least that's the theory. In practice, some people find that if the EPR setting is either too high or too low, the "EasyBreathe" algorithm can seem to be out of sync with their breathing. People will say things like the machine is rushing them to inhale (or exhale) before they want to or the machine won't let them finish their full inhalation (or exhalation). Fiddling with the EPR setting is usually enough to get people over the hump of feeling like the machine's EasyBreath is out of sync with their breathing. And it's also important to remember that not everybody likes or wants to use EPR. If none of the EPR settings are comfortable, you can always try turning it off.

Now it's also important to understand some other things about EPR: If you look at that snippet of my husband's data, you'll notice that even though his min pressure is set to 8cm, most of the time, the mask pressure is actually around 6cm. That's because the pressure setting is for the "IPAP" setting on a Resmed Autoset. And Pressure-EPR is the "EPAP" setting. The EasyBreathe algorithm has the pressure at the full pressure setting only at the critical "end of inhalation" timing in the respiratory cycle.

The upshot of this is that some people find that if they want to use EPR, they need to bump their min pressure setting up by about the same as the setting they use for EPR.

Now there's one other potential problem with EPR being set to 3: In a few people, setting EPR = 3 can lead to too much CO2 being blown off during exhalation, and that can depress the respiratory drive, which leads to the brain forgetting to send the signal to "inhale" and you get a CA scored, and in the worst case scenario, this can set up a string of centrals being scored as the body goes through so-called CO2 overshoot/undershoot cycles. In other words, for a small number of xPAPers, setting EPR = 3 can lead to strings of CAs. That's why Pugsy often recommends turning EPR down when new xPAPers post data with a bunch of CAs: It's an easy experiment to try and if it fixes the problem, then that's one less thing to worry about. If it doesn't fix the problem then we know there's something more significant going on, and that's when looking at the data more closely and examining the diagnostic sleep test along with any titration study that was done becomes critical.
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Albatros
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by Albatros » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:51 pm

Great thank you Robysue !
I have listed every thing and will digest it experiencing.
I will keep you informed.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:14 pm

Albatros wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:51 pm
Great thank you Robysue !
I have listed every thing and will digest it experiencing.
I will keep you informed.
Oh for goodness sake, just post an OSCAR typical night and people will help you learn it easily without reading one of RobySue's encyclopedias! :lol:

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by Albatros » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:04 am

Thank you Chicago Granny.
I will do it soon.

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robysue1
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by robysue1 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:22 am

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:14 pm
Albatros wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:51 pm
Great thank you Robysue !
I have listed every thing and will digest it experiencing.
I will keep you informed.
Oh for goodness sake, just post an OSCAR typical night and people will help you learn it easily without reading one of RobySue's encyclopedias! :lol:
If you don't like my encylopedias, then don't read them. :)

But from feedback that I've gotten through the years, a lot of people, including posters Albatros, do appreciate a thread that gives them more information than feedback about a specific OSCAR screenshot.

Lots of people don't really understand how EPR works. And that's fine---if EPR is working for you. But if it's not, it helps to understand how it works.

Lots of people post questions that make it clear they don't really understand how/why a machine running in auto will (or will not) increase the pressure. Having some general information helps them.

In other words, Albatros asked general questions about three things: Max pressure, min pressure, and EPR. And I answered them.
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jlsmithseven
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by jlsmithseven » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:00 am

Don’t listen to negative people, they’re just looking for a reaction, which feeds them.

I have to say all of the valuable information you gave me helped me understand many of the settings that others couldn’t do. Their usual response is like just turn EPR off for a few days and see how it goes, without really explaining what that will do and why.

Just wanted to say thank you and keep up the great work it means a lot. Just the simple fact I learned that the pressure doesn’t burst the airway open made me understand so many other things too.

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by lynninnj » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:59 am

robysue1 wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:22 am
ChicagoGranny wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:14 pm
Albatros wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:51 pm
Great thank you Robysue !
I have listed every thing and will digest it experiencing.
I will keep you informed.
Oh for goodness sake, just post an OSCAR typical night and people will help you learn it easily without reading one of RobySue's encyclopedias! :lol:
If you don't like my encylopedias, then don't read them. :)

But from feedback that I've gotten through the years, a lot of people, including posters Albatros, do appreciate a thread that gives them more information than feedback about a specific OSCAR screenshot.

Lots of people don't really understand how EPR works. And that's fine---if EPR is working for you. But if it's not, it helps to understand how it works.

Lots of people post questions that make it clear they don't really understand how/why a machine running in auto will (or will not) increase the pressure. Having some general information helps them.

In other words, Albatros asked general questions about three things: Max pressure, min pressure, and EPR. And I answered them.
Sometimes you post more info than I am prepared to read. I just skip over it and don't say anything because *I* know that when you are addressing something I have asked specifically of you, I have read every word and learned quite a bit from it. I learn from other peoples questions as well.

For that I am truly grateful.

It's the damned calculus that drives ME batty. :roll: :D :lol:

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by babydinosnoreless » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:02 am

robysue1 wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:22 am
ChicagoGranny wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:14 pm
Albatros wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:51 pm
Great thank you Robysue !
I have listed every thing and will digest it experiencing.
I will keep you informed.
Oh for goodness sake, just post an OSCAR typical night and people will help you learn it easily without reading one of RobySue's encyclopedias! :lol:
If you don't like my encylopedias, then don't read them. :)

But from feedback that I've gotten through the years, a lot of people, including posters Albatros, do appreciate a thread that gives them more information than feedback about a specific OSCAR screenshot.

Lots of people don't really understand how EPR works. And that's fine---if EPR is working for you. But if it's not, it helps to understand how it works.

Lots of people post questions that make it clear they don't really understand how/why a machine running in auto will (or will not) increase the pressure. Having some general information helps them.

In other words, Albatros asked general questions about three things: Max pressure, min pressure, and EPR. And I answered them.
Some of us are visual learners and for those graphs help. Some of us are book learners and that is why encyclopedia explanations help. I myself am a book learner. Graphs mean very little to me but robby sue and pugsys encyclopedia's are invaluable.

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by DayDreamBeliever » Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:44 pm

+1 for robysue's encyclopedia articles :)
(Maybe you should put them on the wiki and then you don't need to repeat information for each of us clueless newbies).
robysue1 wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:49 am
The EasyBreathe algorithm has the pressure at the full pressure setting only at the critical "end of inhalation" timing in the respiratory cycle.
Why is the end of inhalation the critical point? I would have thought (clueless newbie again) that the critical point, i.e. the point at which the soft tissues in the throat are most likely to collapse, is right when the exhalation ends and the negative pressure from inhalation kicks in, which tends to suck the walls of the throat together? So EPAP has to be high enough to prevent that. And that's why on an Autoset you have to increase "Pressure" by the same amount as you increase EPR.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:25 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:22 am
If you don't like my encylopedias, then don't read them.
No worries. I don't read them. :shock:

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by robysue1 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:26 pm

DayDreamBeliever wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:44 pm
Why is the end of inhalation the critical point? I would have thought (clueless newbie again) that the critical point, i.e. the point at which the soft tissues in the throat are most likely to collapse, is right when the exhalation ends and the negative pressure from inhalation kicks in, which tends to suck the walls of the throat together?
That's a question for Resmed's engineers and programmers, not me. For what it's worth, Flex on the PR machines does increase the pressure back to the set pressure during the second half of the exhalation stage. You can't "see" this in the pressure graphs because PR doesn't provide a high resolution mask pressure graph, but that's what all the literature they put out about Flex says happens.
So EPAP has to be high enough to prevent that. And that's why on an Autoset you have to increase "Pressure" by the same amount as you increase EPR.
That's the conventional wisdom around the idea that if your AHI increases when you turn EPR on or increase the EPR setting, you should consider bumping up the min pressure setting by the same amount.
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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by palerider » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:22 am

DayDreamBeliever wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:44 pm
+1 for robysue's encyclopedia articles :)
(Maybe you should put them on the wiki and then you don't need to repeat information for each of us clueless newbies).
robysue1 wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:49 am
The EasyBreathe algorithm has the pressure at the full pressure setting only at the critical "end of inhalation" timing in the respiratory cycle.
Why is the end of inhalation the critical point? I would have thought (clueless newbie again) that the critical point, i.e. the point at which the soft tissues in the throat are most likely to collapse, is right when the exhalation ends and the negative pressure from inhalation kicks in, which tends to suck the walls of the throat together? So EPAP has to be high enough to prevent that. And that's why on an Autoset you have to increase "Pressure" by the same amount as you increase EPR.
Well, I don't think that it *is* a 'critical point', EasyBreathe works the way it does because it just feels *very natural*, (speaking as someone who normally runs a PS of 6, twice what you can get with EPR)). That's a fair amount of PS, and at no time do I feel *anything* from the machine, it just makes it easier for me to breathe, living up to it's name.

As to your statement about the end of exhalation, if you look at "classic" sleep breathing, the end of inspiration immediately goes into exhalation, which tapers off to a pause before the next breath starts. That's not really visible on the screenshot that robysue posted.

It's more evident in this shot, which is the classic sleep breathing pattern
Image

(PS of 2, btw)

Here's another one, you can sleep the plateau between breaths.
Image

I'm not sure about robysue's example, but it's more sinusoidal, though not what I'd call awake breathing, it might just be the expanded y axis that's throwing off the look of the breath shapes.

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by ozij » Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:29 am

palerider wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:22 am
I'm not sure about robysue's example, but it's more sinusoidal, though not what I'd call awake breathing, it might just be the expanded y axis that's throwing off the look of the breath shapes.
Having done my share of expananding the Y axis, I can affirm PR's statement.

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Re: On which parameter to play, when, why, with which result ?

Post by Albatros » Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:00 am

This first day of 2023, I reread your answers to my post concerning the settings of Pressures, EPR, ...

I would like to thank you warmly, especially Robysue for her long/complete presentation.

It takes time to really assimilate your answers and to test.

But, thanks to you all, we are making progress, and we are grateful to you

Very good year!