OSA and diabetes

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Janknitz
Posts: 8503
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: Northern California

OSA and diabetes

Post by Janknitz » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Abstract: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... /dc18-2004

A more detailed summary: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2019/ma ... 71272.html
The researchers' findings indicate that the association between type 2 diabetes and OSA is bidirectional. This means that the study suggests that type 2 diabetes may encourage the development of OSA, and OSA may encourage progression of type 2 diabetes.
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

User avatar
dogsarelife
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:55 pm

Re: OSA and diabetes

Post by dogsarelife » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:56 pm

Janknitz wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:00 pm
Abstract: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... /dc18-2004

A more detailed summary: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2019/ma ... 71272.html
The researchers' findings indicate that the association between type 2 diabetes and OSA is bidirectional. This means that the study suggests that type 2 diabetes may encourage the development of OSA, and OSA may encourage progression of type 2 diabetes.
thanks for posting that Janknitz.

I've got a young, lean brother (BMI 20) who has developed insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, much like the study in the opening post. I found another study of young lean men developing insulin resistance from OSA, and it's pretty small sample size, but feels relevant for my brother's case.

He is trying to lose weight in the hopes it will cure his diabetes, and when I brought up sleep apnea to him he told me "only people above BMI 30 develop it" sigh. he's now eating veganish and as close to zero carb as possible, so basically almost no food at all and it's concerning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3476882/
In young, lean, and healthy men who are free of cardiometabolic disease, the presence of OSA is associated with insulin resistance and a compensatory rise in insulin secretion to maintain normal glucose tolerance. Thus, OSA may increase the risk of type 2 diabetes independently of traditional cardiometabolic risk factors.
my brother's endocrinologist didn't bring up sleep apnea during his appointment and it makes me angry. How does a young, lean dude who suddenly developed high blood sugar and doesn't have the antibodies for type 1 diabetes not trigger an immediate sleep study? Why don't more doctors look into sleep issues as a source of health problems? it makes you really angry if you think too hard about it.

i also feel angry that my brother thinks he somehow gave himself diabetes when to me, it seems pretty clear none of his health problems are his fault; no asks for sleep apnea and all the complications from it.

_________________
Mask: AirTouch™ F20 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: also use AirFit F20 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
sometimes in order to succeed it just takes one more try. and a lot of frustration along the way.

Janknitz
Posts: 8503
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: OSA and diabetes

Post by Janknitz » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:18 pm

I've got a young, lean brother (BMI 20) who has developed insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, much like the study in the opening post. I found another study of young lean men developing insulin resistance from OSA, and it's pretty small sample size, but feels relevant for my brother's case.

He is trying to lose weight in the hopes it will cure his diabetes, and when I brought up sleep apnea to him he told me "only people above BMI 30 develop it" sigh. he's now eating veganish and as close to zero carb as possible, so basically almost no food at all and it's concerning.

my brother's endocrinologist didn't bring up sleep apnea during his appointment and it makes me angry. How does a young, lean dude who suddenly developed high blood sugar and doesn't have the antibodies for type 1 diabetes not trigger an immediate sleep study? Why don't more doctors look into sleep issues as a source of health problems? it makes you really angry if you think too hard about it.
People who are lean and highly insulin resistant (in other words pre-diabetic or a type II diabetic) are sometimes described by the acronym "TOFI" or "thin on the outside, fat on the inside", the fat is usually around the organs, and most notably TOFI's often have fatty liver disease.

Weight loss is the mantra of the endocrinologists who seem to think that people cause their insulin resistance by "allowing themselves" to become fat--clearly not the case for your brother. I have a daughter who is now 18 and she weighs 81 lbs with all her clothes on--she is very petite as well, but that's about a BMI of about 16%. Yet she is highly insulin resistant (with severe PCOS she inherited from me) and her first (and quickly fired) endocrinologist told her at 13 the best way to treat this condition was to lose weight :roll: --she can't afford to lose an ounce (and that NEVER should have been said to a vulnerable teenage girl!!!) More recently her current endo almost called child protective services on me last year because she used to weigh 88 lbs--almost a 10% loss of body weight (caused by stress, not by her parents starving her!) Her insulin resistance and PCOS are no better despite the 10% loss in body weight, BTW, so weight loss is clearly not the answer for her.

I just cannot imagine what vegan food would also be "close to zero carb" unless unless your brother is drinking olive oil as his main food, and malnutrition certainly isn't the answer either.

Caution--rude generalizations ahead! I once had a wonderful endocrinologist, but for the most part they are arrogant pricks. Sleep apnea is first of all "not their department" and secondly, they are usually such big fat shamers that they would never even consider it for a skinny guy like your brother--he doesn't fit the profile. Many women and thin men are overlooked for testing because they don't fit the stereotype of what a sleep apnea patient should look like. His endo is clearly assuming he doesn't have sleep apnea because he's thin.

My guess also is that your brother didn't "suddenly develop high blood sugar". It was probably there all along, but not recognized because who would even bother testing a skinny guy??? Elevated glucose comes long after years--more like decades-- of insulin resistance, and they don't EVER test for insulin resistance, even if someone presents with symptoms like "reactive hypoglycemia" or acne or signs of PCOS in teen girls (my daughter only got tested because i recognized the symptoms and had to fight her doctor to order the tests--when they came back showing severe PCOS and insulin resistance, her doctor at least had the grace to call me and apologize for resisting my request for testing).

There is definitely a hereditary component to hyperinsulemia, insulin resistance, diabetes. But the ancestors who gave us that DNA rarely if ever had diabetes. The change is in the environment and in the food that we have been drilled into thinking is healthy that pulls the trigger on the gun DNA loaded.

Your brother's idea to limit carbs would be a good choice IF he was eating adequate natural (not processed) fats and sufficient protein. But otherwise I agree with you that it's very dangerous. Some people get it when their teeth start falling out, some people dig in and suffer the health consequences. :(
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

User avatar
dogsarelife
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:55 pm

Re: OSA and diabetes

Post by dogsarelife » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:35 pm

Janknitz wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:18 pm
Weight loss is the mantra of the endocrinologists who seem to think that people cause their insulin resistance by "allowing themselves" to become fat--clearly not the case for your brother. I have a daughter who is now 18 and she weighs 81 lbs with all her clothes on--she is very petite as well, but that's about a BMI of about 16%. Yet she is highly insulin resistant (with severe PCOS she inherited from me) and her first (and quickly fired) endocrinologist told her at 13 the best way to treat this condition was to lose weight --she can't afford to lose an ounce (and that NEVER should have been said to a vulnerable teenage girl!!!) More recently her current endo almost called child protective services on me last year because she used to weigh 88 lbs--almost a 10% loss of body weight (caused by stress, not by her parents starving her!) Her insulin resistance and PCOS are no better despite the 10% loss in body weight, BTW, so weight loss is clearly not the answer for her.

I just cannot imagine what vegan food would also be "close to zero carb" unless unless your brother is drinking olive oil as his main food, and malnutrition certainly isn't the answer either.
oh wow Jan, I'm so sorry about your daughter's experience with that endocrinologist. That must have been disheartening for both you and her. And I'm sorry about the PCOS that both of you have. I read a study that people with PCOS are 30 times more likely to have sleep disordered breathing, so do you think the OSA begets the PCOS or the other way around?

and do you think your daughter could at all have sleep disordered breathing, even if not full on OSA? I was looking at the website of Dr Guilleminault, the guy from stanford who discovered OSA, and it seems like he's now trying to push for pediatric sleep medicine and dentistry to focus on proper palate, tongue placement in the mouth from a very early age. For example, I think he advocates dealing with tongue ties in babies because that can prevent proper breathing and thus proper mouth/face/jaw development?

I saw on another site he is involved in oromyofunctional research exercises that are supposed to be performed 45 minutes twice a day by young children and their parents to promote cheek, jaw, nasal breathing, palate, and tongue development in addition to pushing for detection of something called "nonhypoxic sleep disordered breathing" which he thinks happens way before sleep issues turn into OSA? I'm not sure if I'm understanding it right but it will be interesting to mee to see if this gets picked up at all by medicine, and what that would mean to start treating sleep disordered breathing at earlier ages?

Anyway thanks for commiserating about my brother. I've tried to reason with him, but he wants to listen to his endo, who told him maybe if he loses weight he can nip things in the bud. Sigh. So he's basically eating salads with dressing for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and he also eats coconut oil, vegetables of course, maybe some beans since they don't spike him, and who knows what else. but I'm scared to ask what his caloric intake is

If I ask him about changing up his diet and adding in say, meat, or even some carbs or a dessert or other treat every now and then for sanity, he gets really touchy, so I just try to leave him alone and hope and pray that he will try out my apap one day and hope that he doesn't develop malnutrition or waste away

_________________
Mask: AirTouch™ F20 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: also use AirFit F20 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
sometimes in order to succeed it just takes one more try. and a lot of frustration along the way.

Janknitz
Posts: 8503
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: OSA and diabetes

Post by Janknitz » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:11 pm

Well, my daughter and I have another strike against us, we both have "micrognathia" which is small, receded jaws, and high arched palates which are part of a genetic syndrome she got from me too (poor kid!)

However, she seems to be clear from apnea because she had a great orthodontist who really approached her issues well. He used something called the "damon system" which broadened her palate by pulling (not pushing) the teeth outward with activated wires, and this allowed her tongue to help with the pushing for a natural shape. No teeth were pulled. Then he used something called a "herbst appliance" to bring her lower jaw forward slowly and without pain. I had an ENT evaluate her when the orthodontia treatment plan was completed (three phases and a LOT of money!) and she has a nice, patent airway.

I was treated with retraction orthodontia, teeth were pulled, and I have a very narrowed airway. My OSA is a given no matter what I weigh.

My daughter isn't fully out of the woods because another symptom of our syndrome is low muscle tone, so that could cause OSA even with a nice, open airway. But so far so good.
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm