"Sleep Doctor" doesn't like autopaps

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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rested gal
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"Sleep Doctor" doesn't like autopaps

Post by rested gal » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:19 pm

This quote from a good post by loonlvr in another topic, Feb 17, 2005 Subject: Family MD vs. Sleep MD
reminded me of something.
I was sent to a sleep doc by my reg doc. I didn t know much about the machines. He gave me the reg straight pressure machine. After 15 months I was tired of the mask leaks and not knowing how I was doing. So I requested an auto from my sleep doc. He flatly refused.
Not so long ago, I decided to go to a "support" group meeting sponsored by a nearby major hospital that has a very big sleep clinic. It was not an "A.W.A.K.E." group - it was entirely done by the hospital's sleep clinic doctor and staff. I sat through a power point presentation the head sleep doctor was giving, but the interesting part happened afterwards in the back of the room where a girl from the sleep lab was showing a couple of people various masks. I wandered back to see the masks. Wonder of wonders, she had an Activa and a Swift in the stash. "Well," I thought to myself, "looks like this clinic might be a good one if they are using ResMed masks."

After she went through explaining the masks, one guy asked the tech about autopaps. He didn't know what they were called, but it was obvious what he was asking when he said, "I've heard about some kind of smart machine that's automatic." The girl started telling him about BiPaps that have an inhale and exhale pressure.

He said, "No, I don't think that was it...it's called something automatic." Again she started in on BiPap. I began to have a feeling that she was deliberately not mentioning autopaps because she seemed quite knowledgeable about masks and had answered his other questions easily.

I had vowed that I was not going to say a word...just listen, but I couldn't stand it another minute. After she got through with her second explanation of BiPaps, I said to the man, "Maybe what you've heard about is an autopap. They are set for a range of pressures." Then I looked at the girl expectantly, waiting for her to explain autopaps to the man. But, whoa! Talk about a storm cloud brewing. If looks could have killed.... lol!!

The man said, "Yeah! Yeah! I think that's what it was! How do those work?" I said nothing. The girl said nothing. He asked her again, and finally here's what she said: "We don't use those here. We only use cpap and bipap." I sat back to wait, because the man was obviously not going to let that go by.

He asked that magnificent word, "Why?" LOL!
The girl said, "The doctor doesn't like them."
The man asked, "Why not?"

And here's what she said (remember, we're talking about autopaps): "The doctor doesn't like them because those machines wait until you're having an apnea before they raise the pressure. The doctor doesn't want you to have apneas."

The man is looking very puzzled at this point, and why wouldn't he? I mean, what's the point of a machine that would deliberately let you have apneas before they do something about them?

So, I ventured a comment: "I have an autopap and it works fine for me. It senses subtle changes in breathing and uses just enough pressure to keep my throat open... preventing apneas, not just waiting for them to happen."

The girl looked like she was chewing nails. She leaned back in her chair with the age-old defensive body language gesture of arms folded across chest and said, "That's not how they work."

I said, "Well, I'm not going to argue with you, but I've had three different autopaps and the software for each to see my nightly data. They've all worked well for me. My current one is the newest Auto with C-Flex."

The girl said, "The doctor doesn't like C-flex either."

At that it was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. I began gathering up my coat and handbag. The girl pushed her chair back farther and didn't ask the man if he had any other questions. heh.

By now, the man who had been scribbling furiously on a notepad during all this, is fighting to keep a straight face. Later, out in the empty hospital lobby, he and I talked for about an hour. He filled up several pages of the notepad, saying, "THAT's what I wanted to know." "THAT's the kind of thing I came here to find out about."

I never actually spoke with the sleep doctor herself. After her underling parroted what she had obviously picked up from the doctor herself - "The doctor doesn't like autopaps because they wait until an apnea happens" - I didn't see any reason to meet the doctor, who had been occupied with several other people in another part of the big room.

Oh, and I forgot to mention....it's a Board Certified Sleep Doctor. "Doesn't like autopaps." LOL! There seem to be a lot of them out there - autopaps AND "sleep doctors" who are anti-autopap.

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of uncomfortable patients dropping out of cpap treatment right and left. What a shame.

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tomjax
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Sleep and all docs human

Post by tomjax » Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:59 pm

There seems to be an attitude among many people that docs have all the answers and are much smarter than the average person. This is part of their persona.
As a pharmacist, I always cringed when a patient started to make a statement with "My Doctor said------"
They are human and make their share of incorrect diagnoses and dumb thoughts.

I happened to be in a setting with many docs, actually a recovery center for professionals with addiction problems. I was dismissed after 1 week because I could not admit to a problem I did not have. They could not think of anything but substance abuse when all I had was sleep apnea. Lost my license anyway.

Get them outside their specialty and dealing with other subjects in life and they are not at all special. There are exceptions, of course. Some are very brilliant, but no more than society as a whole.

The experience you had with the tech and her relating the docs opinions is not surprising at all.
The sad part is that far too many patients will suffer as a result of this ignorance and bias.
Welcome to the real world.

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wading thru the muck!
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Post by wading thru the muck! » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:33 pm

rested gal,

GREAT story, Thanks for sharing it. That really made my evening! The real reason the Doc doesn't like autopaps is that if she starts prescribing them it will cut into the DMEs profits and they won't be taking her out for any more fancy lunches. How do these people look themselves in the mirror.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!

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LDuyer
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Wow

Post by LDuyer » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:53 pm

Wow rested gal,

Absolutely amazing. And you described it so well, I could imagine being there, imagine the frustration, the suppressed incredulous laughter, the appalling amazement.

It showed me the power of those important words and phrases:

why?
and why not?

Any so-called professional not willing to answer those aren't to be trusted, let alone listened to. A real professional will list all the options, and discuss the pros and cons of each. Shocking! A great reminder to us to ask those simple yet all-important questions.
Thanks, rested gal....!!!

GTOJim
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Post by GTOJim » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:03 am

I just went though something very similar. I’ve been on CPAP 1 ½ years and haven’t felt any better. I recently went to a sleep doc and requested a sleep study, my request was denied, although the doc did schedule a follow up appointment for me.

At my follow up I requested a prescription for an Auto C-Flex, request denied, no reason given.

A few days ago I took delivery of a new Auto C-Flex with software, paid for without going through my insurance, courtesy of the sleep doc.

Using the Auto C-Flex I find my pressure spends a good deal of time at 15/16, my old CPAP prescription was set for 12. Sleep doc stated during my follow up visit, my prescription was correct, even though I was complaining.

I have only used my new Auto C-Flex for 4 nights and I’m waking up feeling refreshed instead of feeling as though I need a nap while getting out of bed every morning.
I haven’t had the headaches I was getting up with every morning for the past four days.

A big thank you to everyone who has been sharing their experiences and helping others in this forum. Otherwise I would still be using my old CPAP set at a pressure that wasn’t doing me any good.

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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:23 am

Good for you, Jim! It's amazing how many of us have to take up the reins in our own hands to get the right kind of treatment. The knee-jerk "No" that a few doctors seem to revel in when the subject of any kind of treatment comes up - not just regarding machines - smacks of: "I'm the doctor/god...you're just a patient who could never understand what I know...do what I say and stop wasting my time."

There are good doctors out there, of course. But the ones with closed minds and godlike complexes sure can make this kind of treatment difficult for a lot of people.

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Liam1965
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Post by Liam1965 » Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:25 am

rested gal wrote:There are good doctors out there, of course. But the ones with closed minds and godlike complexes sure can make this kind of treatment difficult for a lot of people.
I agree, although it's not limited to doctors. There are people in any area of human endeavor who get a little knowledge and decide that they're now an "expert" and not to be questioned.

It's part of why I LOVE my doctor (I do, but only when my wife is not around, she'd get so jealous). We always discuss everything we find, and he's more than open to trying things I suggest. He'll give me his guidance, he'll tell me why he does or doesn't think some treatment is worth trying, but in the end, we come to a conclusion together. Him with his expertise in medical training, me with my years of expertise in the functioning of my own body.

Liam. People who think they're all-knowing are really annoying to those of us who are.

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Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:17 am

I still don't understand why the dislike for Cflex. That makes no sense. Other than maybe they don't understand how it works, so therefore it isn't any good?

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WillSucceed
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Knowledge

Post by WillSucceed » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:46 pm

Really interesting stories! I think that the biggest value that I have enjoyed regarding this forum is the knowledge I have gained. I have been seriously frustrated and angry at the professsional care-givers here who have either not had the knowledge that I needed or, had decided that I did not need to know the knowledge that they had. I wonder if this is a control thing; keep the patients stupid and then they will need us forever.

Had I known then, what I know now, I would have purchased an AutoPAP right from the get go. I remember asking about AutoPAP and being told "Oh, that's just for use in places like Eastern Canada where they don't have sleep labs." Makes me so angry I could just spit nails.

I don't know if any of you get the cartoon called "Bizarro" in your local newspaper. I saw one in the paper that made me laugh so loudly that I fell off my chair. --Patient standing at the reception window, being handed a clipboard by the receptionist who is on the other side of the window. The receptionist says to the patient: "Just have a seat and when he thinks you feel significantly less important than him, the doctor will see you."

Admittedly, not all doctors are this way, but some sure are.

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loonlvr
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Post by loonlvr » Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:20 pm

Gee, i m glad my orginal post got this subject going. I m proud that you spoke out. I always feel that some patients get too intimitated to speak up. I ve learned from experience(and liam) never to keep my mouth shut when I KNOW what i m talking about. We must remember that this field of treatmen t is fairly new in the sense of tech advances. Alot of us know more from experience than the experts know from their books.

GTOJim
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Re: Knowledge

Post by GTOJim » Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:10 pm

WillSucceed wrote:
I don't know if any of you get the cartoon called "Bizarro" in your local newspaper. I saw one in the paper that made me laugh so loudly that I fell off my chair. --Patient standing at the reception window, being handed a clipboard by the receptionist who is on the other side of the window. The receptionist says to the patient: "Just have a seat and when he thinks you feel significantly less important than him, the doctor will see you."

Admittedly, not all doctors are this way, but some sure are.
I had a feeling I was not going to like the sleep doc the first time I laid eyes on him Instead of being taken into an examination room, I was escorted to the doctors office where the doc sat behind a huge desk, almost completely blocking the doorway into his office. The doc was sitting in a big leather executive leather chair wearing a light knit turtleneck and sports coat. The desk must have either built inside of his office or his office built around his huge desk.

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janc
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Knowledge

Post by janc » Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:27 pm

Right GTOJim...there are docs out there who are more interesting in themselves than their patients! I have been fortunate enough to have one of the best....he stays on top of my treatment and has great bedside manner too. I feel having sleep apnea diagnosed has saved my life...I just couldn't believe how poorly I felt during the day until I started feeling better and staying awake during the day! Hope there is more than one "sleep doc" in your neighborhood. It makes the difference having a physician a person can count on and believe in.
Janc

GTOJim
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Post by GTOJim » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:42 pm

I’m feeling much better since I started using my new Auto C-Flex even though it’s only been a few days. Hopefully I will continue to feel even better as my sleep debt starts getting paid off.
I never thought I would wake up ever again in the morning feeling rested. I already feel as though I have gotten my life back.

Getting my life back on track is due to the folks who participate in these types of forums, sharing their experiences and helping people.

Thanks to everyone.

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LDuyer
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Required reading

Post by LDuyer » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:04 pm

I think our forum should be required reading for all doctors entering their profession.




Linda

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JudyAnn
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Post by JudyAnn » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:06 am

Rested Gal,

Great story and what a shame that there are doctors out there like that that are so narrow minded when it comes to this disorder. Every SA patient is different and what works for some, do not work for others. This is such an individualized disorder in my opinion.

I was lucky to have started my journey with my Pulmonologist sending me for my sleep test. They put me on CPAP and when I could not stand it, kept tearing my mask off, etc., after 5 weeks they put me on an Autopap. As soon as I went for the month check up with the Respiratory Therapist at my doctor's office, she said right away that she would try me on an auto and for the first time, I kept the mask on and slept through the night.

I know I would have felt like you being there and listening to her avoid that man's questions and not having the correct facts about the autopap. That man was lucky to have run into you and have a chance to find out what really goes on with an autopap.

You go Girl!

Judy