Oboma .. another term

[Bons]

What gets me is that conservatives keep reminding us that this nation was founded on Judean/Christian values. If so, then decent health care for all people should be a concern. A Christian nation would not put up with people dying of an easily treated disease because they have no means of paying for that treatment. Corporations that are now reducing their employee's hours in order to avoid the tax deductible expense of health care are not acting from any values I've seen in the Bible.

[LSAT]

What gets me is that conservatives keep reminding us that this nation was founded on Judean/Christian values. If so, then decent health care for all people should be a concern. A Christian nation would not put up with people dying of an easily treated disease because they have no means of paying for that treatment. Corporations that are now reducing their employee's hours in order to avoid the tax deductible expense of health care are not acting from any values I've seen in the Bible.

Tax deductable doesn't mean that it costs the corporation nothing. It still costs about $15,000 to insure a family.

[johnthomasmacdonald]

this is what a lot of us wanted to vote for and sadly obama isn't there but he's a lot closer than the other guy was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsE ... re=related

[NateS]

What gets me is that conservatives keep reminding us that this nation was founded on Judean/Christian values. If so, then decent health care for all people should be a concern. A Christian nation would not put up with people dying of an easily treated disease because they have no means of paying for that treatment. Corporations that are now reducing their employee's hours in order to avoid the tax deductible expense of health care are not acting from any values I've seen in the Bible.

Where in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament are we commanded to form governments to tax some to do the charitable work that is expected of each of us individually?

It is not in there. We believers are asked to take care of the widows and orphans, the poor and the ill voluntarily and cheerfully as individuals.

Using government to do God's work is destructive to our cause and our Church.

Perhaps this will help you:

Render to All What Is Due Them: What Every Christian Needs to Know about Honoring Civil Authority and Paying Taxes, Part 2

http://www.opc.org/OS/html/V4/4b.html

[opticalpopsicle]

It baffles me that some companies are going ballistic now over having to insure workers if they have more than 50 employees. That has been the law in my state for decades. It was never a big deal....no one ever complained. I've always had health insurance because of it no matter where I worked. It is just the way things are done in my state. When you applied for a job, if you didn't like the health insurance premiums offered...or the health insurance, you just went elsewhere for work. No biggie. There was always an employer that would hire you that had great benefits. Also the state medical has an extremely generous threshold for qualifying with no waiting list. I never knew anyone who didn't have health insurance......until we moved to Florida for 5 months. People there looked at me like I had 10 heads if I asked them how to get health insurance. Employers didn't seem to contribute at all. We couldn't get health insurance down there to save our lives. I was walking on eggshells the whole time we lived there just hoping this wasn't the day my family gets into a car accident. Needless to say we lasted 5 months in that state before coming back up north lol!

[Cereal Killer]

Needless to say we lasted 5 months in that state before coming back up north lol!

Good riddance.

If you would have taken about 14 million of your Yankee brethren back with you, we would have a very nice state down here.

[-tim]

As a US Citizen living in Australia, I can say that the local system here is much better that what either side was after there.
I'm a bit annoyed that something on the order of 4 congressional districts worth of US citizens have no vote but are required to pay taxes. Talk about taxation without representation. I do have a wishy washy letter from someone in DC saying that I don't need Obama care yet they won't grandfather in the plan I'm on (which does cover insurance to Australian standards while I'm in the USA). If I go back for 31+ days, I have to buy other insurance. The same is true for the guys I know who do work her for NASA and the National Weather Service. The guys who are contractors in Antarctica are in a real mess since their medical care is covered but are required to buy useless insurance (as it will not cover anything in Antarctica).
I think the real problem is you can't knock something like 3% of the GDP out of a job if you fix the medical paperwork system.

[Bons]

Off the top of my head:
II Corinthians 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”
I Timothy 6 17: Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
James 5: Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

No, it does not refer to paying taxes. But, for the Jews (and the Christians still considered themselves part of the Jewish community at that time) there was no separation of church and state. As a theocracy, "church rules" applied to everything. There was no charitable giving (like church offering money) vs how to use all of ones assets.

[opticalpopsicle]

Needless to say we lasted 5 months in that state before coming back up north lol!

Good riddance.

If you would have taken about 14 million of your Yankee brethren back with you, we would have a very nice state down here.

Aren't you pleasant. I don't think I even met one natural Floridian while down there. Everyone was from New York. I'm not from New York - can't help you there. Maybe you should secede?

[CowFish]

Where in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament are we commanded to form governments to tax some to do the charitable work that is expected of each of us individually?

It is not in there. We believers are asked to take care of the widows and orphans, the poor and the ill voluntarily and cheerfully as individuals.

Using government to do God's work is destructive to our cause and our Church.

Having your income taken and redistributed leads to citizens that feel no further responsibility to the poor. The morally uplifting act of cheerfully giving is undermined.

I would be careful of shifting moral agency from the individual to the State, as the State has shown to be less moral than individual citizens.

[ButtermilkBuoy]

No, it does not refer to paying taxes. But, for the Jews (and the Christians still considered themselves part of the Jewish community at that time) there was no separation of church and state. As a theocracy, "church rules" applied to everything. There was no charitable giving (like church offering money) vs how to use all of ones assets.

That's not correct. At the time those passages you cite were written, the early Christian church was under the thumb of Roman rule and occupation. The state referred to in those passages, the Roman Empire, was very much more separated from the church than it is today in the U.S.

The Christian church had no power at the time those passages were written. They met in private homes and they certainly did take up offerings to help the poor.

We need to maintain the separation of church and state. I am reading into your post that you would be well pleased with a Christian theocracy for our country. That is not going to happen.

[NateS]

No, it does not refer to paying taxes. But, for the Jews (and the Christians still considered themselves part of the Jewish community at that time) there was no separation of church and state. As a theocracy, "church rules" applied to everything. There was no charitable giving (like church offering money) vs how to use all of ones assets.

That's not correct. At the time those passages you cite were written, the early Christian church was under the thumb of Roman rule and occupation. The state referred to in those passages, the Roman Empire, was very much more separated from the church than it is today in the U.S.

The Christian church had no power at the time those passages were written. They met in private homes and they certainly did take up offerings to help the poor.

We need to maintain the separation of church and state. I am reading into your post that you would be well pleased with a Christian theocracy for our country. That is not going to happen.

I didn't get that impression from Bons post. I think he/she merely trying to respond to So Well's post. But it is easy to get that impression from So Well's post, because he asked:

Where in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament are we commanded to form governments to tax some to do the charitable work that is expected of each of us individually?

which could be read as implying that citizens require authority from the Bible in order to have their representatives enact tax laws and spending laws, whereas I believe it is pretty clear that those powers are derived from the Constitution and do not need any Biblical authority, as I agree with you that the USA is not a theocracy.

Nate

[ButtermilkBuoy]

I didn't get that impression from Bons post. I think he/she merely trying to respond to So Well's post. But it is easy to get that impression from So Well's post, because he asked:

Where in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament are we commanded to form governments to tax some to do the charitable work that is expected of each of us individually?

which could be read as implying that citizens require authority from the Bible in order to have their representatives enact tax laws and spending laws, whereas I believe it is pretty clear that those powers are derived from the Constitution and do not need any Biblical authority, as I agree with you that the USA is not a theocracy.

Nate

Well I don't know about that. I assume a lot of you know each other and read things in that I would never see.

However, I took it that this question (silly as it seems),

Where in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament are we commanded to form governments to tax some to do the charitable work that is expected of each of us individually?

was a challenge because the writer knows there is no reference in the Bible telling Christians to use government as a proxy to do charity work. Maybe he will log in this evening and expound further.

It would be easier for us new guys if you would speak straightforward. But that is the way forums go.

Now to do the same, I object to using government to do the work of Christians. I would hope, should I ever convert to Christianity, that I would continue to hold this tenet - Christians are to do their own charity work and not use government as a convenient proxy that avoids the sometimes unpleasantness of dealing directly with the poor.

[ButtermilkBuoy]

Having your income taken and redistributed leads to citizens that feel no further responsibility to the poor. The morally uplifting act of cheerfully giving is undermined.

I would be careful of shifting moral agency from the individual to the State, as the State has shown to be less moral than individual citizens.

I very much like the way you worded that. Are you an atheist or a Christian? Your position is intellectually defensible by both sides.

[NateS]

I object to using government to do the work of Christians. I would hope, should I ever convert to Christianity, that I would continue to hold this tenet - Christians are to do their own charity work and not use government as a convenient proxy that avoids the sometimes unpleasantness of dealing directly with the poor.

Well I would certainly object to that too. That's why I don't think that religious organizations should have any tax-exempt status.

On the other hand, I certainly would not accept the argument that the exercise by the government of the powers granted to it by Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution necessarily constitutes doing the charity work of Christians.

Government has responsibilities of its own, as defined by the citizenry through their elected representatives. This would be true even if the entire citizenry were atheists and/or regardless of what religion or mix of religions or beliefs the citizenry consist of. If all or any part of the exercise of these governmental responsibilities, as defined by the citizenry through their elected representatives, overlaps with the religious work or duties of parts of the population, that is frankly irrelevant.

Taxing and Spending Clause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxing_and_Spending_Clause

Regards,

Nate