30 Minute Nap without Cpap--Can this be Harmful ?

[DannyPh]

I normally don't nap during the day but for some reason today I fell asleep at the Computer and slept for approx 30 minutes. Can this be Harmful napping with out the Cpap machine ? I know it is unadvisable to sleep without the cpap machine but I cannot justify hooking up the machine for 30 minutes. I store my machine away each morning as I have small G'children here that would think it was a Toy and destroy it within Minutes.

[Janknitz]

It's not a good idea to make a habit of even only short naps like that.

You still have apnea, even during short sleep cycles. That point is driven home to me every time I let myself take a cat nap without CPAP--usually when I doze off in the recliner when I'm watching TV. I sometimes wake myself with snoring, and I also have reflux, which is entirely absent on CPAP. That reflux is an indication that the airway was closed off enough to make the vacuum effect in my airway, pulling stomach contents up into the airway in an effort to breathe. This can happen within 5 or 10 minutes of falling asleep. And even when I don't have the reflux to contend with, I wake from these catnaps with a gruesome headache that can last for hours.

It's a PITA. I don't want to schlepp the machine all over the house, and I have a teenager who would be mortified if one of her friends walked in and saw me masked up (hmmm, maybe it's worth it ). So that means I have to get myself into the bedroom if I catch myself feeling drowsy and sleepy while watching T.V. No fun. I miss the Saturday afternoons when I could just zone out in the recliner for a nice nap.

Unless your grandchildren are really small toddlers that can't understand that this is grandpa's breathing machine and they are not to touch it, they should be shown the machine to satisfy their curiosity and to learn that it is not to be played with. My children, even when they were very small, understood "not for babies" and would stay clear of things they were not supposed to touch--the trick is that there should only be one or two things they can't touch so you aren't saying no constantly.

[Goofproof]

As tou know it's not the way to do things, but unless you die from it it's not too harmful. I also do it and shouldn't. It also makes your real sleep more restless. jim

[sleepydawn]

I agree with the others. Do you have software to help monitor your treatment? I'm concerned that you may need some adjustments made if you're falling asleep so easily. I was doing the same thing with good numbers and it turned out that I have narcolepsy.

[Kevin G.]

The biggest problem with naps is that you are moe likely to stay up late because you are not sleepy. The need for naps is also a sign that you are not getting all the sleep you need at night.

I find sleeping in a cair can be restful.

If I am running on a sleep deficit the nap can be essential to allow me to function in the afternoon.

[LinkC]

If you are sitting up in a chair, I would guess the chance of an apnea is considerably lessened.

But I still wouldn't make a habit of it.

[rehpotsirhc21]

I am new to this but the way I see it is if you use your machine on a regular basis a short nap without it cant hurt. Yes, issues like reflux may come back, you may not feel as rested etc. but think about how long you went without any CPAP, you are still alive, any health problems caused from it are probably better now that you are using it, but a 30 min nap isnt going to hurt anything, i cant imagine you would go into REM more than a few times in that small time-frame7777777777q.

[mars]

I normally don't nap during the day but for some reason today I fell asleep at the Computer and slept for approx 30 minutes. Can this be Harmful napping with out the Cpap machine ? I know it is unadvisable to sleep without the cpap machine but I cannot justify hooking up the machine for 30 minutes. I store my machine away each morning as I have small G'children here that would think it was a Toy and destroy it within Minutes.

Hi DannyPh

The short answer is - not if you do not have apneic events, and yes if have them causing desaturation.

Most of us do not have events all the time, and for myself there can be an hour or so when I do not. (Look at your data to check this out for you). Napping with an oximeter with the alarm set for oxygen desaturation is the way to go. If the alarm goes off (say SpO2 less than 89) then a nap is not viable at that particular time.

However, I agree that having a nap is an indication that my sleep hygiene needs attention

cheers

Mars

[dtsm]

I have been napping regularly on train ride home each evening, abut 30 minutes. I don't see any harm....cpap is long term consistent therapy. As long as you're on the hose at night, following protocol, that occasional nap is not an issue. IMHO.

[larry63]

Maybe I shouldn't perhaps speak on this subject because I'm only recently diagnosed. But then again as a new-comer maybe some comments
on what I'm about to say might help me understand some things.

First of all, would a 30 minute nap really take you into the deep stages of sleep where you can get xpneas? It so, it seems to me that
if you got to the level where you're getting apneas, then would be less a concern than the fact that your nap is going to kill your day because you're going to have major sleep inertia trying to wake up from a deep level of sleep. My apologies in advance if I'm wrong in assuming that xpneas only happen in deeper stages.

Also, in general I don't understand this concern people have in general about going a few nights without CPAP from time to time. Again,
this is coming from a relatively uneducated patient so correct me if I'm wrong.

I can certainly see wanting to avoid the fatigue that a couple of nights with out xPAP might bring about. That seems reasonable, because for
a lot of people on this forum and others, it seems that after CPAP they seem to have more energy during the day with CPAP than without.

But I can't understand that there could be any kind of health risk. OSA is not the kind of thing, if I understand correctly, happens suddenly in the course of a few months. Isn't it more usually the case that it's been undiagnosed and untreated for typically 10 to 50 years? If that is the case, I don't
see how it could be a problem to say, go on a weekend trip once in a while, or camping, without using it, if this happens only once every few months. Again I'm talking purely health matters here, and not comfort and energy levels. After all, most of us I imagine went for a at the very minimum a decade without any treatment whatsoever, and we still lived. So I don't see how it could possibly matter that much more
that now that we have CPAP, we may go two or three days every couple of months without it. When you compare it to the many years of having no treatment at all, I don't understand why people seem to think they're at risk of dying if they don't take their CPAP on a three day plane trip or whatever.

Again, some people seem to feel lousy when they sleep without CPAP, so that's an another matter, and that point of view I completely understand - it's an entirely different issue.


Someone enlighten me please

[mars]

Hi Larry63

I can understand what you are saying, and from a generalised point of view I think it is very reasonable.

Sometimes my thinking can go back to the way it was when I was programming computers. One line of code that is wrong can cause the whole system to crash.

Now, I have Barretts Esophagus. Obviously there was a time when I did not have Barretts Esophagus. Although there may be a long time in developing Barretts Esophagus, there must have been a point when I did not have it, and within a specific time I had it. If I had not experienced the conditions that made the definitive change, then I may not have got it.

I have a lot of things wrong with my body, with the underlying cause probably being obstructive sleep apnea. So again, the conditions must be there to initiate the things wrong with me. So if a certain condition requires x number of apneic events to initiate, then if I keep below that number then the condition will not arise.

Most of this conjecture, and even if it was true I would still have no idea how many apneic events under what conditions were a pre-condition of a particular health problem.

So I minimise my apneic events, not wanting to pass over that (possible) hidden boundary where I get something else wrong with me, and nearly always use an oximeter for any naps I take (I fail sometimes).

Sorry for writing in a pedantic way - I was also making this clear to myself.

On the other hand - because of the side effects of taking acid reflux medication I have stopped taking that medication, and now have untreated acid reflux, and the problems that may cause for me. But daily quality of life is important to me, and I refuse to live just to tend to my health problems.

So we all make our choices, and live (or die) with the consequences.

cheers

Mars

[Junebug999]

I do have a suggestion about having your equipment out and safe....when my kid was a toddler, I had a business in the home involving a computer (back in the dark ages), and my son FED money into the disk drive. So, I went to a plastics place and had a "plexiglas hat" made for my computer. It was open in the back to allow ventilation, but it covered the front drive so my son wouldn't think it was a piggy bank....

I think these machines might need (like the computer) a lot of ventilation so they don't get overheated, but maybe something could be devised to keep your machine out and ready for that 30 minute nap.

I have taken some naps without mine, but I'm trying and wanting to have it on whenever I can. I have aspirated into my lungs before and gave myself pneumonia (2009) and then almost happened again this August (which is a Godsend because it led new doc to start asking me questions about sleep and sending me for sleep study, cpap, etc).

Also, while I fight naps, and believe me the other day I took a 40 minute nap, and anyone who would have tried to have prevented that nap probably would have been met with lethal force....the best thing is to not take naps if we can help it....I think

[JayR_1945]

For thoughts about Naps, I would heartiliy recomment the book by James B. Maas Power Sleep.

In general, the Siesta or Power Nap, for an hour to an hour and a half between 1 and 3 in the afternoon is a good thing. However, napping at any other time (or heavy disrupted snoring) is an indicator of a more serious sleep problem.

There is evidence that we should have never given up our afternoon nap. There is a natural dip in hormonal acitvity during this time. And, I think the nap should be long enough for one complete sleep cycle(including the coveted REM sleep), and wake up naturally. If you use an alarm clock or a noisey environment, this simply disrupts the sleep cycle. 20 minutes is not long enough. And it should occur while lying down, ....not at a desk, or in a chair or lazyboy.
Good Respiration is still important. If you are apneic enough to use CPAP at night, then you should use CPAP during the nap. Sleep is sleep.

Willl missing a nap, or not using CPAP for one night cause irreperable harm? Probably not. We will survive that just as we have in the past. But if you seek better respiration and sleep, your system is responding to the therapy. And, if you're apneic and you don't "miss" your CPAP machine. It's probably not helping. Find out why.

The CPAP machine also needs good respiration. If it's too noisey, add another length of hose (for a maximum total of two) and place it on the floor at the foot of the bed(I do). But, don't cover it up or put it in a drawer. It has to breathe too.

There is a recent news report on the first Siesta Championship in Madrid. I thoroughly disagree with a prize for the loudest snorer. Please, ....sign this guy up for a UPPP. But, a siesta is good. A Power Nap with "sated" sleep is even better. I've been working hard at preparing for this potential Olympic event. Yes, go for the gold.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.......

[donnafowler]

Maybe I shouldn't perhaps speak on this subject because I'm only recently diagnosed. But then again as a new-comer maybe some comments
on what I'm about to say might help me understand some things.

First of all, would a 30 minute nap really take you into the deep stages of sleep where you can get xpneas? It so, it seems to me that
if you got to the level where you're getting apneas, then would be less a concern than the fact that your nap is going to kill your day because you're going to have major sleep inertia trying to wake up from a deep level of sleep. My apologies in advance if I'm wrong in assuming that xpneas only happen in deeper stages.

Also, in general I don't understand this concern people have in general about going a few nights without CPAP from time to time. Again,
this is coming from a relatively uneducated patient so correct me if I'm wrong.

I can certainly see wanting to avoid the fatigue that a couple of nights with out xPAP might bring about. That seems reasonable, because for
a lot of people on this forum and others, it seems that after CPAP they seem to have more energy during the day with CPAP than without.

But I can't understand that there could be any kind of health risk. OSA is not the kind of thing, if I understand correctly, happens suddenly in the course of a few months. Isn't it more usually the case that it's been undiagnosed and untreated for typically 10 to 50 years? If that is the case, I don't
see how it could be a problem to say, go on a weekend trip once in a while, or camping, without using it, if this happens only once every few months. Again I'm talking purely health matters here, and not comfort and energy levels. After all, most of us I imagine went for a at the very minimum a decade without any treatment whatsoever, and we still lived. So I don't see how it could possibly matter that much more
that now that we have CPAP, we may go two or three days every couple of months without it. When you compare it to the many years of having no treatment at all, I don't understand why people seem to think they're at risk of dying if they don't take their CPAP on a three day plane trip or whatever.

Again, some people seem to feel lousy when they sleep without CPAP, so that's an another matter, and that point of view I completely understand - it's an entirely different issue.


Someone enlighten me please

Well, it is like this. I don't have to be in a deep sleep to have apneas. I can have them within a few minutes of falling asleep. I also have events sitting up in a chair if I fall asleep, so for me it is not positional. My oxygen levels drop to unacceptable levels during these events. When you are not breathing, your cells are being starved for oxygen. Heart cells, lung cells, and brain cells to name a few. Would you allow someone to smother you over and over during the night willingly? Do you feel you don't need to take care of your brain cells? Personally, I can't afford to lose any of the healthy cells I have because I don't want to be bothered to use my CPAP. And it is kind of like my sleep doc said--without adequate oxygen, your heart can stop. If that happens, it won't start again on its own. It only takes once, there will be no warning that it will happen. You just won't wake up. So, maybe I am overly cautious, but I don't drink, I don't smoke, I always wear my seatbelt, and I try to take care of the cells I have, so I won't be depriving them of oxygen willy-nilly. No, I guess chances are it would not KILL me to go a night without CPAP, but since I kinda like my brain cells, I will use it every time I sleep.

[larry63]

Hi Larry63

I can understand what you are saying, and from a generalised point of view I think it is very reasonable.

Sometimes my thinking can go back to the way it was when I was programming computers. One line of code that is wrong can cause the whole system to crash.

Now, I have Barretts Esophagus. Obviously there was a time when I did not have Barretts Esophagus. Although there may be a long time in developing Barretts Esophagus, there must have been a point when I did not have it, and within a specific time I had it. If I had not experienced the conditions that made the definitive change, then I may not have got it.

I have a lot of things wrong with my body, with the underlying cause probably being obstructive sleep apnea. So again, the conditions must be there to initiate the things wrong with me. So if a certain condition requires x number of apneic events to initiate, then if I keep below that number then the condition will not arise.

Most of this conjecture, and even if it was true I would still have no idea how many apneic events under what conditions were a pre-condition of a particular health problem.

So I minimise my apneic events, not wanting to pass over that (possible) hidden boundary where I get something else wrong with me, and nearly always use an oximeter for any naps I take (I fail sometimes).

Sorry for writing in a pedantic way - I was also making this clear to myself.

On the other hand - because of the side effects of taking acid reflux medication I have stopped taking that medication, and now have untreated acid reflux, and the problems that may cause for me. But daily quality of life is important to me, and I refuse to live just to tend to my health problems.

So we all make our choices, and live (or die) with the consequences.

cheers

Mars

OK, I think I see what you're saying. You're not so much that OMG I my heart is going to enlarge if I take a 30 minute nap without and so forth. So it is more like the opposite - are you saying that for example with regards to Barrets esouphagus, that that any time you fall asleep without xPAP your are making the condition incrementally worse? Or rather, possibly bringing on a new problem. Ok I think I need to nap.

Incidentally, you could PM me about this, but you say you used to program? The general psychology and methodology of software engineering has advanced in the last few years, so that if you're doing test-driven-design, your single bad line of code will only cause your test to fail, long before the code ends up in the production system. PM me if you want more details.