Doctors reactions to male vs. female complaints

[SleepyT]

this is why most of my doctors (including sleep doctor) are female. just makes sense to me as they share the same plumbing...same hot flashes...same everything. the only male doctor i have is my dentist.

[DoriC]

Note that I proposed an "in control" position. If the patient makes it an adversarial relationship, the patient will not be in control.

Roster, Yes, yes, I LOVED what you said in this post!! I call it the "Schmooze Factor" and it has worked very well for me through the "ages"! I try to pick my battles carefully if necessary so that I don't lose the entire war. I had the good fortune to watch my attorney daughter in action recently and she was really going after the opposing attorney in the court hallway but when she got into the courtroom she was so perfectly charming, made her points smoothly and accurately, and won her motion easily with smiles from the Judge and the other attorney. She never listened to me Ever when she was a teenager and I was almost ready to send her to "boot camp"!

If a buyer creates an adversarial position with the car salesman, he will cut himself off from good information that the salesman has and will not get the best offer.

Doctors and car salesmen have to make a salary and a profit, but their human nature makes them work harder for people they take a liking to and people who show them respect.

The one thing you do not want to do is try to show the doctor how smart you are. Here in the South many of us learned how to present ourselves to arrogant people as admirers earnestly seeking their wisdom and help. In meetings we know what we are doing but we don't let the doctor know. You can speak diffidently and unassumingly to a doctor and let him have his say, while you know that you will continue to question until you get the information you need and also knowing that you will make the final decision and have the option of seeking another opinion.

After a poor in-lab titration, a poor prescription and poor advice on managing my sleep, I bullied my current sleep doctor to get what I needed at that time and I don't regret bullying her. It got me what I needed in a hurry. However, it took a couple of office visits and several referrals I sent to her with the message, "Rooster said to come to you and he speaks highly of you", to get back on a friendly partnership relationship - the best way to get results. (This doc was relatively new to sleep medicine and insecure when I had that titration but over the last three years she learned much and became more secure.)

You will do better if you are in control. You will do the best if you are in control but you let the doctor think it was his idea all along.

[Tovi]

My regular doctor and sleep doctor are fabulous and take me seriously. Both are women. I do mostly have women doctors. I try to select doctors that listen to me, but I've had males who listen too. I also try to explain to my doctor how my symptoms affect my life. What tasks I can no longer do. How it affects my little kids.

My neurologist is pretty useless at the moment, and says my increase in symptoms are due to age. He's male, but I find that neurologists as a specialty tend to be pretty hard headed. I did bring my husband once to a neurologist apt, because the neurologist wasn't listening. Yes, I need a new neurologist.

But then my GI doctor did a full workup on me and he's male.

But I agree there is this stereotype that women go to the doctor for "every little thing" while men only go if "something's really wrong." Personally I only tend to go to the doctor after my husband has asked me to go a lot. He's the same way.

[thewetlizard]

I really don't have any complaints. The only complaint I have is when I go to V.A. Hospital in Tampa Fl. they call me "MR" ! I automanicly pipe up wrong equipment!

[Kiralynx]

I've had the "lose some weight and it will all clear up" for years. I was told this even after losing 180 pounds. "You could lose weight if you wanted to... try getting some exercise, like pushing yourself away from the table."

My now former PCP missed my sleep apnea -- I had been complaining about my hip pain, and poor sleep since 2002, and was told to get some exercise and lose some weight.

In October of 2007, I had horrid bladder spasms and post-menopausal bleeding. I had to insist they do a check for a UTI. That came back negative. I still had the cramps and spotting, and was told to lose some weight and it would all clear up. I managed to handle some of the cramping with a nutraceutical, but I still knew there was something wrong. I hadn't had an appointment with a gynecologist in about 30 years (yes, a mistake, but it was because of a particularly upsetting appointment with one that I just never went back), but I made one. And was diagnosed with uterine cancer. The oncologist wanted me to have a check-up with the PCP before my surgery. When I went to see the PCP, he asked, "Now how did this diagnosis come about?" as if I would just pop out and get a cancer diagnosis for the fun of it.

After my surgery, the PCP didn't want to deal with my pain issues, which included aggravated hip pain. Fortunately for me, he sent me to a good pain management specialist, a woman. She's the one who had me tested for sleep apnea.

In November, my bloodwork came back to the PCP. My A1C, my HDL/LDL, everything was fine, and I'd swear the PCP was disappointed. Funny thing: I'd been on my ASV for about six weeks, and my hematocrit had dropped. This, the PCP announced, meant that I was bleeding inside, and must have a colonoscopy at once! My cancer was coming back! We must find out where it has spread! This frightened me badly, because the most likely place for uterine cancer to spread is to the colon. But, funny thing -- this emergency situation couldn't get me an appointment with a gastro until the week of Christmas, another six weeks away.

The appointment with the gastro was OK, except he saw me as the Monday 2:30p colon, not a human being. There were no provisions for special needs. I dragged my husband with me because I wanted him to hear what the PCP had said about the colonoscopy. I was so stressed out I was screaming and hitting things with my cane. The PCP told my husband that the colonoscopy was a "routine procedure," and "he didn't expect to find anything." Say what the f---?! What happened to "Your cancer is coming back?"

Colonoscopy was normal. Come back in ten years. I have to see the PCP to get a copy of the report. My husband had a meeting that day, so I went alone. And the PCP was back to, "Booga, booga, but it COULD have been your cancer going back... but you know, if you'd lose some weight, this wouldn't be as much of an issue." What the <bleep>?! Booga booga when I'm by myself, but "routine procedure, she's just over-reacting" when my husband is with me?!

That was when I changed PCPs. New one is female, and she's pretty good. However, the muscle pain issues which had been plaguing me since last August (and which resulted in an inflammation index nearly double that of the lab normal) got me an appointment with an overweight male rheumatologist who told me that (a) if I'd lose some weight, the inflammation would go down, and (b) he didn't know why I was hurting, but I could just go home and take some Tylenol. My objection that I can't have OTC acetaminophen because it contains sugar and starch which I can't have got, "I looked it up -- it's just a little sucrose. It won't hurt anything." Except that yes, it will.

So, the upshot of it was that I had to ask a friend who's a medical practitioner to write me the prescription I needed for an out of patent med that is presently working wonders for the pain issues.

I really dislike going around the people who are supposed to be my health care team, but d@mmit, they don't have to live in this body. I do.

[Patrick A]

I'm getting a headache from reading this forum. Good posts.

[JohnBFisher]

Note that I proposed an "in control" position. If the patient makes it an adversarial relationship, the patient will not be in control.

If a buyer creates an adversarial position with the car salesman, he will cut himself off from good information that the salesman has and will not get the best offer.

Doctors and car salesmen have to make a salary and a profit, but their human nature makes them work harder for people they take a liking to and people who show them respect...

Rooster, that's a wonderfully simple way to present that. Great job, as always.

[grandmma]

John, I agree, thanks for (as always) articulating it so well, Rooster.

I myself have always ascribed to the "you catch more files with honey..." theory. In addition, most people love to be flattered!

[roster]

You guys are going to suffer. When you encourage me, I will tell more stories.

grandmma, as a sales manager, you will appreciate this one. As a very young man just starting in business I had the good fortune to travel with a very smart "good ole" Southern boy from Alabama who was a VP of sales for our company. When I rode in the car with him he had a way of showing his respect for me and making me very comfortable - even though I knew he secretly considered me a damn whippersnapper worthless nuisance from the corporate office and was hoping I would get out of his hair quickly.

We would arrive at a customer and I had a very professionally prepared presentation, well-rehearsed and ready to impress. When we were in the customer's office, the ole boy would take over. The first thing he would do would be to create the impression that we had a good product to sell but were just a couple of dumb ole boys that did not know how to sell anything. Then he would subtly praise the customer's intelligence, experience and know-how and ask him to give us poor dumb boys some help in selling our excellent products.

By now the customer was eating out of his hand and I could occasionally slip in one of the impressive slides from my prepared presentation and the customer would look at the slide and explain it to us.

When our time was up, all my slides had been shown and the customer had made the presentation.

When we revisited the customer, they would be told we were having success at other customers because they had showed us how to sell our products. And that was at least partially true because we were learning how the customer responded to us and using this with other customers.

Some wise person has said, "You can make a friend by helping someone, but to make a really good, very loyal friend, ask someone to help you." We put this principle to work.

I am basically a smartass and smartasses don't sell much. But because of that learning experience, I know to change my approach when I am trying to sell something. It has worked very well for me.

Another story is when I was working for a large multinational headquartered in Germany. We had developed a very good partnership with another multinational who was selling us basic raw materials for our Americas operations. Their chief of sales told us he also wanted to sell to our operations in Europe and Asia and needed our help approaching our German parent who would make these decisions. We gave him some time and he made a presentation to me and my director of sourcing. The presentation was much better than expected. He demonstrated a frim grasp of the history, current situation and future trends of the market. His presentation on the technology was detailed and impressive. We both told him this and said we were blown away with how intelligently and knowledgeablly he presented himself and his company and the excellent analysis and slide show he had prepared. He had educated us.

We also told him we would get him an appointment with the key decision makers in the German headquarters. He was very happy to hear all of this.

Then I told him to listen to me on how to proceed. First, do not give that presentation in Germany (He was shocked after we had just praised the presentation). The guys in our German headquarters are arrogant corporate people that look down on companies from the U.S. You have to go in humbly asking for their help and praising their superior knowledge of what to do.

Well the guy would not listen, went over and made the impressive presentation to eight key people, was kicked out on his ass, and never sold a thing to them. It was a shame because his company could really have helped us in the other regions.

BTW, the good ole boy in the first story had trouble selling to women. He was an old-timer that came from male-dominated businesses and had no desire to work with females. He retired before females began to make significant in-roads in management of our customers. He had a wife and two daughters that he doted over but did not accept women in management positions of companies. Both of his daughters went into management and are doing very well.

[grandmma]

I am basically a smartass and smartasses don't sell much.

(sotto voice, shocked) - really?!!

But because of that learning experience, I know to change my approach when I am trying to sell something. It has worked very well for me

Then you're a smart cookie, because most smartasses think they know more than everyone else, yes, but also don't learn due to this mental roadblock. Loved your stories, and your approach to learning. Thanks for sharing - and it is nice to glimpse yet another facet of what makes Rooster .... Rooster.

I myself for the last few years find the blonde, fluffy headed grandmother appearance gets me a long way!

And it is true, isn't it, that the most successful sales people aren't the smartasses, but the ones who appear genuine, honest, sweet, and yes, appear to listen and learn from you. Goes a long way!! I've often wondered if any of them later realise they've been manipulated?

[grandmma]

BTW, the good ole boy in the first story had trouble selling to women. He was an old-timer that came from male-dominated businesses and had no desire to work with females. He retired before females began to make significant in-roads in management of our customers. He had a wife and two daughters that he doted over but did not accept women in management positions of companies. Both of his daughters went into management and are doing very well.

BTW, love the come-uppance in that one!

[roster]

And it is true, isn't it, that the most successful sales people aren't the smartasses, but the ones who appear genuine, honest, sweet, and yes, appear to listen and learn from you. Goes a long way!! I've often wondered if any of them later realise they've been manipulated?

So a customer that favors sales people who "appear genuine, honest, sweet, and yes, appear to listen and learn from you" has been manipulated? I know you did not mean it that way.

In my experience manipulation of customers was rare. We marketed to a fairly small industry, about 2000 customers, with 200 of them accounting for 80% of the market. There was plenty of talking within the market and employees switching jobs from company to company within the market. People knew what was going on and this was all repeat sales and longterm relationships.

We went out of the way not to manipulate customers and tried never to sell them something that was not good for them. Our reputation could be hurt badly if we sold something to a customer that did not bring him good value.

As far as the sales tactics used, they were a way to get the customer to open up and tell us about his business, his manufacturing challenges and his problems, needs and wants. This gave us the chance to match up our products and services in a way that would give the customer the optimal quality and service that he needed. This was a win for the customer and our company.

If a competing company could not develop such a close open relationship with the customer, they would not be able to make good recommendations on processes and products.

In those days we did a lot of dining, golf, hunting and fishing trips. Spend three days with a guy in a duck blind and you are likely to learn something about his business. This gave us an advantage in going into his plant next week and solving problems for him. We always got approval from the bosses and liked for our technical people to take the plant technical and production people out to nice dinners regularly. These lower level people would often tell our people of problems that they were afraid to discuss with the bosses. This gave us great chances to solve more problems for the customer - lowering costs and improving quality. Of course we were careful not to make the bosses look bad (some of them were really bad) - let them take credit for using us to solve the problems and keep stroking the lower levels.

There were some games that went on, but the company had some great processes and products and we tolerated the games in order to get the customer to use us to solve problems.

Hell I am still doing this in my parttime retirement job. I don't want to sell anyone something that is not very good for their business. I don't need the grief from the fallout at this point in my career. (I can always retire again. )

[grandmma]

So a customer that favors sales people who "appear genuine, honest, sweet, and yes, appear to listen and learn from you" has been manipulated? I know you did not mean it that way.

Oops, my bad, badly written, and actually, you are more correct in that last line than you realise. By "them", I actually meant if the sales folk realise the act on the part of the customer?!! I'm sure when customers are manipulated, a lot of them may not realise it at the time, but perhaps do on reflection.

Edit: I guess I'm asking here, Rooster, did you ever realise that some of those innocent, young & blonde, or maybe older & "fuzzy" customers may have used this as an angle for a better deal? (Not that I'm assuming for a minute you'd fall for that, of course, unless it suited you to let them think so!! )

In those days we did a lot of dining, golf, hunting and fishing trips. Spend three days with a guy in a duck blind and you are likely to learn something about his business.

Shame that the global economy, and the race to higher and better shareholder profits has put paid both to travel , and also to a lot of the above kinds of "wining and dining" of customers, too. Often false economy, IMHO.

[Gondring]

I take issue with the premise.

Gynecologists won't even let me make an appointment, let alone give me the time of day!

[grandmma]

You got us there!