BiPAP ASV - Backup Power Question

[BleepingBeauty]

Hi, all.

I recently (finally!) acquired a BiPAP Auto SV through CraigsList. My question relates to using a backup battery with this unit.

I have the BatteryGeek C-222 (http://www.batterygeek.net/v/vspfiles/S ... _222Wh.asp), which has worked well with my M Series APAP. When I attempted to use the battery adapter that matches the receptacle on the back of the ASV, the machine's alarms went off. My understanding is that typical machines have an output of 12V,; the ASV's is 24V.

Respironics says I need their specific adapter for the ASV, Part No. 1012975 (https://www.cpap.com/productpage/DC-Pow ... Bipap.html). But the manufacturer of my battery says I can use an Inverter, instead (http://www.batterygeek.net/200-Watt-DC- ... verter.htm), which will power both the ASV and the heated humidifier. I'm not sure if that's accurate in my case, because I use the F&P HC150, not the integrated humidifier that came with the machine. If it's true (and if it necessitates the use of the integrated humidifier), I'd consider amending my setup to use the ASV humidifier. I don't know much about these things, so I don't know if what I've been told is true.

PLEASE keep your answer(s) as simple as possible, because the "tech talk" about inverters, sine waves and the like tends to make my eyes glaze over.

It goes without saying that spending $50 for the Inverter is more appealing than dishing out $165 for the Respironics adapter; I just need to know that the Inverter really will do the trick.

So, what configuration do other BiPAP Auto SV users have for backup power?

TIA for your "Battery Backup for Dummies" answers.

[OutaSync]

BB,

If I am reading your link to the Respironics converter right, it says
"This will not power your machine and integrated heated humidifier. In order to power both the machine and the heated humidifier you will need to purchase an Inverter."

BB

[BleepingBeauty]

BB,

If I am reading your link to the Respironics converter right, it says
"This will not power your machine and integrated heated humidifier. In order to power both the machine and the heated humidifier you will need to purchase an Inverter."

BB

That's my understanding, too, Bev. The adapter will only power the machine. The inverter supposedly will power both the machine and the humidifier. (If that's true, why would anyone need the adapater and the inverter?)

Oy, I'm confused already.

[harry33]

if your CPAP will accept 12 volts DC, then simply get a few car batteries and a battery charger, forget about the humidifier as they use too much power, humidifiers are seldom actually needed, IMO and have been oversold

[Kiralynx]

I've been thinking ahead to the 2010 hurricane season, and looking at what to get, myself. (My prayers for "fish storms," ie, storms that go up the middle of the Atlantic and don't bother anyone except the fish, in 2009, when my Mom was so ill were answered, so I didn't need a back-up last year.)

I concur with BB. This is one thread where geek talk will cause my eyes to glaze over.

I had understood that one couldn't use the heated humidifier on battery back up; it's interesting to see that the inverter the BG folks are recommending might power at least the integrated humidifier. That would be nice -- I do use the integrated humidifier. I have tried using it in passover, on the thought that I might have to, and it was not comfortable. You'd think, with as much humidity as we have is south Louisiana, I wouldn't need a humidifier, but, there it is: I do need one!

I'm kind of puzzled by that inverter, because it looked as though it had a cigarette lighter adapter on the end, and it would appear that you would then need a suitable adapter from that to your BiPap.

Does this mean you need both the inverter and the adapter? <eyes beginning to glaze over>

I wonder why, when all the batteries appear to output 12V, Respironics made our Bipaps for 24V input?

[BleepingBeauty]

if your CPAP will accept 12 volts DC, then simply get a few car batteries and a battery charger, forget about the humidifier as they use too much power, humidifiers are seldom actually needed, IMO and have been oversold

Thanks, harry, but I already own a battery. I need to know whether the inverter will power my machine without the adapter, even if it won't power the humidifier, as well. I can live without heated humidity during power outages, but it would be nice to have (if the inverter will provide enough power).

[-SWS]

I have the BatteryGeek C-222 (http://www.batterygeek.net/v/vspfiles/S ... _222Wh.asp)

But the manufacturer of my battery says I can use an Inverter, instead (http://www.batterygeek.net/200-Watt-DC- ... verter.htm), which will power both the ASV and the heated humidifier.

You can just buy the inverter and use as follows:

1) Plug above-purchased inverter into your c-222'S built-in cigarette lighter socket,
2) Plug your ASV's and HC150's ordinary AC wall plug into the above-purchased inverter's AC outlet (might need a $2.00 AC double-tap)

Neither your BiPAP autoSV nor your HC150 require a pure sine wave inverter. So the above modified sine wave inverter will work just fine powering both with the above two-step AC configuration. Total run time with those introduced inverter inefficiencies remains to be seen...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What's this about having a BiPAP autoSV?

Please consider eventually updating your initial eleven-page long saga thread with your upcoming BiPAP autoSV data results. That way patients, practitioners, and perhaps even researchers who happen across that thread might learn your outcome. That information might conceivably help others who are struggling down the same path as you... Good luck!

(My last post until February... )

[timbalionguy]

Do keep in mind your run time on a given battery will be significantly less with the humidifier. I don't what your intended application is. But if it is short-term (especially for camping, where it is generally more humid at night, anyway), you might see if passover (without heat on) humidification is adequate. If you don't need heat, don't use heat. It will make things simpler for you in the field.

[BleepingBeauty]

I have the BatteryGeek C-222 (http://www.batterygeek.net/v/vspfiles/S ... _222Wh.asp)

But the manufacturer of my battery says I can use an Inverter, instead (http://www.batterygeek.net/200-Watt-DC- ... verter.htm), which will power both the ASV and the heated humidifier.

You can just buy the inverter and use as follows:

1) Plug above-purchased inverter into your c-222'S built-in cigarette lighter socket,
2) Plug your ASV's and HC150's ordinary AC wall plug into the above-purchased inverter's AC outlet (might need a $2.00 AC double-tap)

Neither your BiPAP autoSV nor your HC150 require a pure sine wave inverter. So the above modified sine wave inverter will work just fine powering both with the above two-step AC configuration. Total run time with those introduced inverter inefficiencies remains to be seen...

Plain language, yay! Thanks, -SWS!

Once I have the inverter, I'll experiment with it as soon as I can, to see how much life I'll get from the battery with the ASV (both with and without the heated humidifier) and will post about my results. IIRC, I got about 27 hours out of my battery when using my APAP with no heat, so it'll be interesting to compare and see how much more juice the ASV requires.

I've ordered the inverter just now and should have it in a few days. We're having icky weather this week, so I may very well lose power overnight before the inverter gets here, in which case I'll have to switch machines so that I can use my battery.

What's this about having a BiPAP autoSV?

Please consider eventually updating your initial eleven-page long saga thread with your upcoming BiPAP autoSV data results. That way patients, practitioners, and perhaps even researchers who happen across that thread might learn your outcome. That information might conceivably help others who are struggling down the same path as you... Good luck!

Cheeky devil. And yes, I'll update my old thread. (I'm thrilled to be able to do that!)

(My last post until February... )

Where are you goin'? Hope your absence is for a fun reason (like a well-deserved vacation in a tropical setting, perhaps?) and not something crummy (like having surgery). Whatever it is, I hope it goes well.

Do keep in mind your run time on a given battery will be significantly less with the humidifier. I don't what your intended application is. But if it is short-term (especially for camping, where it is generally more humid at night, anyway), you might see if passover (without heat on) humidification is adequate. If you don't need heat, don't use heat. It will make things simpler for you in the field.

My intended use is here at home, as backup for power outages. But my battery is very portable, should I ever get to go anywhere.

Being in Aridzona, I appreciate having heated humidity; but I can do without it (and have, during past outages) if need be. But it would be nice if I could get two nights out of the battery with heated humidity with this inverter.

I'll let you guys know what I find out when I try it each way. Thanks!

[dsm]

BB

One other thing to check is the current rating of the Bipap + the current rating of the HC150 (check the Bipap power pack for the detail & underneath the HC150 for its current specs).

Make sure the inverter you buy, can deliver the combined current. Inverters are probably sold with a wattage rating e.g. 500 wats capacity.
To work out the current that represents on 110 VAC use this formula W = E * I or restated - Power (in watts) = E (E = voltage in volts) x I (I = current in Amps).


The below are me guessing as I don't have the units in front of me (I have both Bipap SV & HC150 (US version) at home). Hopefully someone else can look at their machines & post the required current rating & you can post the rating of the Inverter you are looking at.

So if say the US version of the HC150 requires a current of 2.5 amps at 120 volts it will generate 2.5 x 120 = 300 watts

if the Bipap and its power pack requite say 2 amps at 120 volts the power reqt is 2 x 120 = 240 watts

Add 240 + 300 & the Inverter needs to be able to handle a max on 540 watts.

Hopefully we can get the right numbers & confirm that the Inverter can indeed handle the wattage max.

DSM

UPDATE
======

Found this tech info - seems the HC150 at 115 volts only requires 92 watts max !!!
http://www.fphcare.com/userfiles/file/O ... Manual.pdf

Just need the info from the bipap AutoSV

[Kiralynx]

BB,

I'm emphatically going to look forward to hearing your results!

'Cause maybe I can get a back-up for my machine. I would feel much safer about summer thunderstorms and hurricanes! (not that I'll stop praying for fish storms, mind!)

[BleepingBeauty]

BB

One other thing to check is the current rating of the Bipap + the current rating of the HC150 (check the Bipap power pack for the detail & underneath the HC150 for its current specs).

Make sure the inverter you buy, can deliver the combined current.

<snip>

Hopefully we can get the right numbers & confirm that the Inverter can indeed handle the wattage max.

DSM

Thanks, DSM.

Here's what it says on the power supply for the ASV:
Input 100-240V~ 50-60Hz 1.2A
Output 26.0V 2.3A

The inverter I purchased is 200W. In part, its description says:
DC Input Voltage: 12V (10-15V)
Output Wave Form: Modified Sinewave
Output Power: 200W
Surge Power Capacity: 600W
Efficiency: Over 90%
No Load Current: <0.3A

I used to have pretty decent math skills, but I guess that part of my brain hasn't recovered enough yet, 'cause formulas like the one you posted above just escape me these days. So (hoping you don't mind), I'm giving you the reins. There are the numbers. Have at it, calculate away, and let me (and other kindred "Dummies") know what you come up with.

UPDATE
======

Found this tech info - seems the HC150 at 115 volts only requires 92 watts max !!!
http://www.fphcare.com/userfiles/file/O ... Manual.pdf

Just need the info from the bipap AutoSV

Thanks again. That's good to know.

BB,

I'm emphatically going to look forward to hearing your results!

'Cause maybe I can get a back-up for my machine. I would feel much safer about summer thunderstorms and hurricanes! (not that I'll stop praying for fish storms, mind!)

I'm looking forward to the results, too. I think you're wise to get a backup power source in place before summer hits, and hopefully this will be just the impetus you need.

As I type this, the rain is falling and the wind is whipping. We're expecting crummy weather through the week, and I just don't sleep without la machine, so I'm going to get my APAP ready before bed tonight, in case it's needed. (I really hope it's not, because I already feel spoiled with the ASV. )

[timbalionguy]

Here's what it says on the power supply for the ASV:
Input 100-240V~ 50-60Hz 1.2A
Output 26.0V 2.3A

The inverter I purchased is 200W. In part, its description says:
DC Input Voltage: 12V (10-15V)
Output Wave Form: Modified Sinewave
Output Power: 200W
Surge Power Capacity: 600W
Efficiency: Over 90%
No Load Current: <0.3A


Found this tech info - seems the HC150 at 115 volts only requires 92 watts max !!!
http://www.fphcare.com/userfiles/file/O ... Manual.pdf

Just need the info from the bipap AutoSV

[/quote]

The power consumption on the BiPAP ASV is confusing at first appearance. But, let's consider the constant part: maximum out power. 26 volts X 2.3 amps = 59.8 W. If we assume the power supply is 80 percent efficient, we get 75 watts off the line max. On the heated humidifier, they give a load spec (both voltage X current and directly stated) of 92 W. Added together, that gives a total load of 167 watts. Since it is unlikely you are using your BiPAP ASV at full pressure output, your power consumption is probably quite a bit less than 60 W. On the humidifier, they are recommending a 150W inverter, probably to give a margin of extra capacity for reliability. This is where they are getting the 150W rating. This device is essentially a low temperature resistance heater, and resistance heaters like this tend to be stable, well-behaved loads. They do not have high inrush currents like so many other electrical items. I would conclude that your 200W inverter is probably adequate for the job (and will likely display optimal efficiency at this power level). But if I purchased one again, I would consider 250W or so.

[Kiralynx]

BB,

I confess that an ASV can easily spoil you for any other kind of therapy. I had occasion to try straight CPAP and straight BiPap (not that I could tell you which machines they were!) and I was petrified of trying to adapt to either. But the ASV really made it easy.

I've considered asking my PCP for a straight CPAP prescription so I could get an Everest for emergencies, but the fact is, I don't want an Everest... I want my ASV! (I wouldn't even have the foggiest notion what to set a straight CPAP to -- I guess my EPAP, but since most of my issues are hypopneas, just the EPAP wouldn't handle that.)

<g> I also look forward to you updating your thread with ASV data and watching the experts dig into it....

I think someone posted about a battery equivalent to the BG-222, but which was less expensive. Wonder if I can find that link?

Edited to add: Found it! Here's a battery from a different company which is apparently similar to the BG-222. http://www.batteryspace.com/polymerli-i ... ocket.aspx

[BleepingBeauty]

BB,

I confess that an ASV can easily spoil you for any other kind of therapy. I had occasion to try straight CPAP and straight BiPap (not that I could tell you which machines they were!) and I was petrified of trying to adapt to either. But the ASV really made it easy.

I've considered asking my PCP for a straight CPAP prescription so I could get an Everest for emergencies, but the fact is, I don't want an Everest... I want my ASV! (I wouldn't even have the foggiest notion what to set a straight CPAP to -- I guess my EPAP, but since most of my issues are hypopneas, just the EPAP wouldn't handle that.)

I'm already there, Kira. I'm now continuing the search for another ASV as a backup. Might take me a year or more to find another great deal, but the thought of having to use my "plain old APAP" in an emergency is not appealing anymore. (I'm glad I have something for those times, but it sure will feel like going backwards in my therapy if I have to use it.)

<g> I also look forward to you updating your thread with ASV data and watching the experts dig into it....

Ditto!

I think someone posted about a battery equivalent to the BG-222, but which was less expensive. Wonder if I can find that link?

Edited to add: Found it! Here's a battery from a different company which is apparently similar to the BG-222. http://www.batteryspace.com/polymerli-i ... ocket.aspx

I went looking, but I lost my internet connection before I found anything. Here's another option for you to consider. It looks to be the same (or very similar) battery that I have, at a lower cost than I paid ($450 at the time): http://www.bestcpapprice.com/Owell-Indu ... 0-516.html