Sleep apnea without the apnea.

[roster]

.........The data I'm getting now hasn't cost me anything. .........

If you spent one cent, you paid more than it is worth.

Get the card reader and software. It is an inexpensive longterm investment.

[GumbyCT]

.........The data I'm getting now hasn't cost me anything. .........

If you spent one cent, you paid more than it is worth.
Get the card reader and software. It is an inexpensive longterm investment.

Only if your time is worth nothing.

[dsm]

Starting with the 1st post in this thread an uncomfortable sense of deja-vu developed. I'll just sit back & wait to see if anyone else feels the same.

D

[peajay]

You're looking in the wrong places and have your figures wrong.

Here's a link for the total bundle.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage-bundle.php?BundleID=64

Ironically, I got my figures from that very same web site. I guess they simply type numbers at random when it comes to prices, because when I found each of those three things seperately, the total was $350.

Still, $199 is way too much.

Also, I found some screen captures of the software online. After thinking about what I saw for some time, I'm decidely unimpressed. The raw data is of low resolution, and the various figures about occurances of apneas and hypopneas and whatnot are highly suspect given the machine's lack of available information from which to make such conclusions.

Honestly, I think what I have right now is better than what I would get for that $199.

How much time have you spent on this "bit-twiddling" so far? Is your time worth anything?

Well, to answer that, I guess we have to look at how much time I'm spending and what I'm getting in return, and decide whether it would be better to spend $70 instead, assuming I could even find what I would need for that price.

So far I've spent, I don't know, let's say 40 hours. In return for that I've gotten some data about my sleep disorder, and I've also kept myself amused for 40 hours.

You suggest that I instead should have spent $70. In return for that, I'd have some data of unknown quality, I'd've had to find some other way to amuse myself for those 40 hours, and I'd have to find some way to compensate for the $70 that was now missing from my $720 monthly budget. Then, after some time of questioning whether or not the machine is capable of knowing all of the things the software claims to know, and subsequently being frustrated that the data recording is of such low resolution that I cannot verify it's conclusions, I'd eventually realize what I could do to amuse myself for those 40 hours: take the machine apart and wire it to my computer.

So it looks like buying that card reader and software isn't in my best interest.

Perhaps everyone else looks at it as if I'm wasting a lot of time I'd rather spend doing something else, but this is the sort of thing I enjoy doing, so the question of what value I assign to that time is irrelevant. It's double-irrelevant since, unlike most people, I can't just decide that the easiest way to get something is to, rather than spend time creating it, instead spend time working and use my pay to get it. That's the only sense in which "value of time" matters, since if you can't exchange time for money, then you cannot assign a monetary value to it.

Using the machine at 4 (the low default machine setting) is pointless - no one can breathe that way,

Actually, with all of the holes punched out of my mask, it works just fine. My reason for using that pressure was to see what happens with as little CPAP treatment as possible, to do my best to rule out the possibility that it is the CPAP treatment itself which is causing the problems I see in the data that I have recorded.

the standard answer would be to use a "full face" mask (nasal one that extends to cover your mouth), but if you're broke and have no immediate access, at least try using tape to test how it works for a couple of nights

I already bought a full face mask. I couldn't make use of the nose mask at all. To start, my nose is stuffed roughtly 50% of the time I sleep. Then, when asleep, just as I fail to keep my airway open, I similarly fail to keep closed the portion of it which connects to my mouth, and so even with tape, my cheeks would baloon and that was totally uncomfortable. I then tried wrapping my face with a reusable bandage to keep my cheeks from inflating, but I couldn't convince myself to sleep that way for fear of waking up with a stuffed nose and the less-than-simple task of regaining use of my mouth for breathing. So I decided I had no choice but to buy the full face mask if I was going to try to use the machine.

Some of us even use it every night.

I thought that was how you're supposed to use it.

Just try these couple of things and give them a couple of nights each to gauge whether they're helping anything.

Of the nights I've tried it so far, I've found that between 10 and 15 seems to leave me waking up feeling a little better, but from what I've seen of my data, it appears that what happens at 4 happens at 10 and 15 as well, so that "a little better" may not mean anything. However, I have yet to make it an entire night with it set to 4, and so maybe 10 and 15 are helping me to sleep longer somehow, even if the beathing issues persist.

I certainly don't have any reason to stop at the moment, so I plan to continue to try it every night just to see if anything comes of it, and also because if I should have another suffocation dream, I'd really like to see the data from that time.

Don't fiddle otherwise with the machine.

Why not? It isn't as if I'm going to break it or anything. I've been taking things apart since I was a little kid and I rarely broke things even then. If this machine should cease to work, I'd be inclined to believe it would have done so regardless.

it sounds like your more interested in reverse-engineering your CPAP machine and how it records information than you are in solving your own problems

No, mearly similarly interested. I'm scientifically-minded. I want to reverse-engineer everything.

You haven't really listened to anyone here...

If you really came here for some advice, listen to the advice people have given you and start getting to the bottom of the problem.

I haven't listened to the constant demands that I cease collecting my own data and make an appointment with a doctor. I do plan to make an appointment with my doctor, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have decided to regardless, and so I can't say that I listened, but that's not why I came here anyway. I already knew that sleep apnea is a medical problem for which doctors can provide treatment.

In my first post, I had some questions I wanted answers to, and I also included some background information for reference. Most of my questions have been answered, and I listened to those answers. I never asked if I should return to my doctor and I never asked if I should collect my own data since I already knew what I wanted to do. Now there's nothing wrong with people having their own ideas of what I should do and making suggestions about what I should do next. That's the whole idea of communicating with other people. ...but to repeat those suggestions in such excess and then complain that I am not listening seems unproductive if you ask me. I am listening, I am simply not making the same decision that you would. I am my own person.

Peajay, you certainly have one of the most ingenious minds I've run across in a while.

Thanks. To impress you further, I think I'll explain how I built my own CPAP machine that one time:

The main problem seemed to be one of regulating the air pressure. I could find air pumps, and they'd create enough pressure, too much in fact, but the idea of CPAP is "continuous positive airway pressure" and so I not only needed the correct pressure, but I needed to have a volume of air at that pressure, so that the process of inhaling and exhaling didn't change the pressure.

My solution was to use a large container of water and a smaller cylinder-like container to store air. The cylinder was open on one end (it was just a small trash can with relatively flat sides) and placing that end down and then into the water created an air space within the can isolated from the outside air space.

The pressure in such an air space is equal to the weight of the displaced water divided by the cross-sectional area of the cylinder (the area of the circle on the end). The further you push the cylinder into the water, the more water is displaced, and so the greater the air pressure within the container.

You may know that things float when the weight of the water they displace is equal to their own weight. Because of this, if I wanted a pressure of 12 cm of water for example, I'd make the air cylinder weigh as much as a cylinder of water (minus the container) 12 cm tall and of the same diameter as the cylinder being used.

Basically, weight the cylinder, fill it with 12 cm of water, weigh it again and subtract the weight of the empty cylinder, and you have the weight of the volume of water you need to displace. Again subtract the empty weight of the cylinder, then the weight that remains is what needs to be added to the cylinder to bring it to that weight. Attach it to the side with the opening so that that side tends to stay down in the water, and the closed end floats to the top.

Now you just need access to that air pressure. Run a pipe into the water to the bottom, then up again to the surface, then place the cylinder over it. The cylinder will immediately fall to rest on the pipe, since the pipe lets the air out, so it no longer floats.

Now pump air into that cylinder. The pressure will increase until it reaches 12 cm of water, at which point enough water has been displaced that the cylinder will begin to float, and rather than the pressure increase, instead the volume of air within the cylinder will increase as the cylinder rises higher. Eventually the volume will exceed the capacity of the cylinder and leak over its edges. This is actually quite convienent as it provides pressure regulation.

So the only thing left to do is to connect an air pump and a face mask. The cylinder will rise and then air will begin to leak out. As you inhale, the air will stop leaking and the cylinder will fall as you use some of the stored capacity of air, but due to the regulation of the floating cylinder, the pressure will remain constant. As you exhale and also as the air pump adds more air, the cylinder will rise, and eventually air will leak from the bottom again.

I added some tubing within the cylinder to allow a less obnoxious release path for excess air, since otherwise the bubbles, released from 12 cm underwater, caused a lot of splashing. For air hose I used 3/4 inch CPVC pipe from the air pump (an air matress pump) into the water and then out again, and from there I used dryer vent hose to run to the mask, which I made out of cardboard, duct tape, and other such materials. I wasn't able to get much use out of it, however, since it was positively the noisiest thing I've ever owned. If I could have stuck it in a garage and simply ran the 3/4 inch CPVC pipe to a bedroom on the other side of the house I may have been able to get somewhere with it, but I live in an apartment, so I just had to give up.

I really want to make a web site with instructions some day. It really wasn't fun to use, but I know I can't be the only person in the world who has gone ten years without access to medical care, and there's no reason CPAP treatment should be limited to those with money. Given that it probably cost $50 to build, and that's also what I paid for the machine I bought from Craigslist, it probably isn't the case that anyone in the U.S. would need to go so far, but maybe someone in a poorer country could make use of the information. If nothing else, it was a fun project.

Have you been able to rig up a recording video of your sleep yet?

I haven't done so yet. I did modify my software so that it arranges data on the page according to time of day, in anticipation of synchronizing it with video, since I can think of no means to synchronize my data with the video aside from the on-screen clock.

I think I'll give it a try later. At this point I don't expect it to reveal much I don't already know, but it shouldn't be too hard to set up, and I really don't have any better ideas. (Except perhaps ECG, but it's much more work and likely to yeild unusable results since ECG electrodes are insanely expensive, and that cancels out my interest in it.)

...but then I was also reading some interesting information I found on the internet about interpreting respiration volume data, so I may spend all of my time looking for more of that. At first it just looked like a bunch of meaningless squigly lines, but the more time I spend looking at it, the more obvious what it has to say becomes.

...but then setting up video should only take 15 minutes, so maybe I'll do both.

Do you take any medications that are prescibed, you purchase from the store yourself or get from friends?

Presently, no. I've tried, perhaps, 20 psychological medications, 2 PLMD medications, every over-the-counter sleep aid, every vitamin, probably every non-herbal non-homeopathic supplement, and a few herbal things.

Did the psychologist ever say there was a concern for autism or obsessive compulsive disorder?

Of all of their random ideas, those two actually never came up.

Do you take any medications at all for your anxiety?

Not really. I still have no interest in once again dealing with the only mental healthcare provider in the area, there isn't anything intended for anxiety available over-the-counter, supplements (GABA, 5-HTP, Tyrosine, Taurine) don't seem to affect it, and herbs (valerian root and kava) are also ineffective. The only helpful things I've found are maintaining good hydration, and to some extent both diphenhydramine and chlorpheniramine seem to help, but I usually don't bother to take them since it usually isn't such a large issue that I take notice of it. I mean, it took 17 years before I realized I even had an anxiety problem, so it's rather easy to forget about.

If you spent one cent, you paid more than it is worth.

Do you honestly believe that? Have you even looked at it? I happen to think it's rather nice, and I believe there's more real information in those squigly lines than you'll get from that data card. Sure, it doesn't say "AHI: 14.7" anywhere, but I can see where I was sleeping and I can see where I was having trouble breathing and I could calculate that number myself if I saw any point in doing so. ...but it's just a number. I don't care about the number. I care about the problem.

Today I was reading about interpreting sleep data, and it seems that where I cycle between breathing well and not breathing well every minute or so, there should also be a similar cycling of the length of the intervals between each heart beat. If I decide to spend $350 or $199 or $70 on anything, I'm going to spend it reusable ECG/EEG electrodes and conductive paste plus some low-noise operational amplifiers and a high-speed 16-bit analog-to-digital converter.

I took the machine apart again yesterday in search of more data points. I eventually found the point which indicates air pressure after I discovered the analog-to-digital converter used by the machine's MCU. It only has two inputs. One was the signal I was already monitoring, the other was the pressure. The pressure signal is rather useless to me since the machine regulates to a constant pressure, and so the pressure never changes, and so it doesn't indicate anything other than the current pressure setting, which never changes during operation. (It'd be really useful if I had Auto-CPAP, but I don't.) As such, it seems that this one data point I've been watching is the very one and only that the machine uses when it makes determinations about when apnea and hypopnea events occur. So the only difference between what I'm doing and using the data card and software is that with what I'm doing, a human being interprets the data, and given typical qualities of software, I much prefer it that way, even if it means I have to educate myself on data interpretation.

It is an inexpensive longterm investment.

Everything is inexpensive if you divide its cost over a long enough period of time. The problem is that while I may want to use the future to pay for one thing today, tomorrow I'll want to use it to pay for something else. I'd like to have those EEG electrodes and that 16-bit ADC, but I don't have them, and it isn't because during the years I've wanted them, the balance of my bank account hasn't been high enough to purchase them. It's just that, when I think about it, I can't convince myself that they wouldn't be a purchace that I'd ultimately regret. If I purchased that card reader and software, I'm positively certain I'd regret doing so, and so it's totally out of the question.

Anyway...

I recorded more data, but it looks just like the others, so I don't see a point in posting it as well. However, the latest file I posted was in error, in that the black lines from the "I woke up" button were drawn in the wrong places. Here's a corrected version, in PDF format since I just now figured out I can do that:

http://www.ecstaticlyrics.com/secret/20 ... %204.0.pdf

The first set of button presses was where I had just barely fallen asleep only to wake up again. That occasionally happens several times before I finally fall asleep, and while I feel as if I woke up because I stopped breathing, I've always believed that isn't actually the case when this happens, since I also feel as if I was asleep only for a fraction of a second and therefore didn't stop breathing for any longer than a fraction of a second. So I hadn't marked them before, which is why I pushed the button several times, to make it look different. ...and, indeed, it appears there was no breathing anomoly at all.

Afterwards I spontaneously decided to attempt to mark the exact point when I woke up by taking note of the number of respirations I take before I push the button and pushing the button that many times. (It's amazing what you can remember when you're looking at something that actually reflects what happened. I totally forgot all about that until I saw the corrected printout.) Waking up seems to occur a breath or two after the end of a non-breathing event. I guess that waking up may be a process that requires several seconds and somewhere before awakening is a state of sleep which once again holds my airway open.

[Julie]

Poking all those holes in your mask is NOT going to give you valid treatment or figures to go by. That's just ridiculous, at best completely ineffective as the air is not ending up where it belongs. "4" is not "treatment", was never meant to be, and no one ever is prescribed "4" as a setting. It may be the 'start-off' place for ramping, but that's another deal entirely. Also, I meant that some people tape every night - but was trying to say you should at least try it for a few nights as a test, but never mind.

[roster]

.........
Thanks. To impress you further, ..............

That's what all your posts are about.

But they are accomplishing the reverse of what you intend.

[elg5cats]

Peajay,
Do you have any pictures of your machine and testing set up you are using to post to show your work? Also, I'm interested in what precautions you take to prevent a fire, shock or possible electric shock as you take your machine apart and connect to your computer. Please be careful as you do things that may block your airway, safety is important as you keep yourself as your scientific project.
elg5cats

[twokatmew]

.........
Thanks. To impress you further, ..............

That's what all your posts are about.

But they are accomplishing the reverse of what you intend.

I have to agree with Rooster.

[millich]

I have to agree with Rooster

Same here.

Peajay, what exactly is it you want from us? Obviously, it's not help or advice.

[ScrappinMom]

It is my opinion that peajay is either bipolar or delusional, or perhaps both. Sleeping 12 - 14 hours is very indicative of depressive phases, and being awake for 20 hours is indicative of manic phases. I'm not a dr, just someone who has observered quite a bit in my time.

Peajay, my suggestion to you is that you find a good psychiatrist who can regulate meds for you. I suspect you've heard this before. Please take heed and do so. Your health, mental and physical, depend on it.

[-SWS]

Peajay, there are a total of eighty-some sleep disorders including apnea.

I'd suggest forgoing the self-diagnosis and biomed-equipment hobby in favor of visiting one of the AASM certified sleep centers below:
http://www.sleepcenters.org/

Good luck.

[grandmma]

This whole thread is very disturbing, and more than a little alarming. I believe in taking control of your therapy, but this.... yikes.

Starting with the 1st post in this thread an uncomfortable sense of deja-vu developed. I'll just sit back & wait to see if anyone else feels the same.

D

Yep, although I've not been around here as long as you, we may be thinking of different folks.

PMs never replied, all offers of assistance rejected, rebuffed, incessantly argued? Disturbing tone of response and therefore thread? Yep.

[peajay]

"4" is not "treatment", was never meant to be, and no one ever is prescribed "4" as a setting.

How many times have I explained this?

Ideally, I would like to not use the machine at all, since what I would like to do is measure airflow volume while I sleep without doing anything to affect what naturally occurs. Since I have no such means, I am instead using the CPAP machine for it's airflow measuring capability, and I am setting it to four precicely because that is as close to no treatment as I can get.

...but at this point, I must say I'm surprised if anyone takes the time to read the entire thread. Perhaps I need to start an FAQ.

Do you have any pictures of your machine and testing set up you are using to post to show your work?

What, do I get a failing grade otherwise? I would post pictures were there anything interesting to see, but there isn't. It's just a pile of junk all wired together.

Also, I'm interested in what precautions you take to prevent a fire, shock or possible electric shock as you take your machine apart and connect to your computer.

Fire? Honestly? You are concerned that it may burst into flames? Seriously?

That's what all your posts are about.

But they are accomplishing the reverse of what you intend.

Yes, because what I enjoy doing in my free time isn't working on electronics projects, but rather, what I really enjoy is finding random internet forums and trying to impress everyone. My self-esteem depends on it. ...but unfortunately you've realized my intentions and so now I guess I need to find a new forum.

Anyway, as long as we're analyzing people, I'll post my own nonsensical drivel: I think there are some people who've been deluding themselves about some things and now someone has come along with a story that strongly contradicts their delusion and so they either have to admit they've been deluding themselves or they have to discredit the story in order to regain their previous sense of wellbeing. I'll let everyone fill in their own details.

Anyway...

Video recording went well. I again collected data with CPAP set to 4. The video revealed no sounds of snoring or dying animals (at least the portions I listened to), only occasional sounds of air leaking from the mask, which corelated with similar indications in the airflow data.

Examining the video during times of disturbance in the airflow data, I confirmed that wild variations in the airflow data are due to body movements, some for which I even opened my eyes, but for which I didn't press the button and so I apparently wasn't too concious. Periods of non-breathing intermixed with the wild variations are therefore simply a result of holding my breath while making movements. (I do wonder if that is normal, but since I do the same while awake, I see no reason to pay any attention to it.)

Examining the video during times of non-breathing without surrounding wild variations confirmed that these are apnea events and not related to body movement. One in particular lasted for 20 seconds, another for 10 seconds, and another for 5 seconds. The 5 second apnea is interesting in that my face was towards the camera and so I could see that leading up to it I was in REM sleep, then the apnea occured, and at the moment it ceased, REM sleep also ceased. So it would seem that apenas do disturb sleep even when they are rather short.

During times of cycling between weak respiration and stronger than usual respirations, it appears that eye movements are stronger and more frequent during the periods of weak respiration, however it is difficult to see the eye movements on video, and so I didn't examine much data. I instead plan to begin monitoring voltage levels on my temples, which largely coresponds to eye movements due to polarization of the retina, and that should allow me to easily look for such corelation over an entire night's sleep.

I also made an appointment with my normal doctor for wednesday morning. I think I have rather good reason at this point to suspect a sleeping disorder, but I hope that including eye movement data will make it completely obvious since I don't expect that past difficulties with convincing doctors that there really is something wrong with me will magically disappear.

Anyway... While I have received some useful responses, I'm overall displeased with the quality of this discussion, and so I'll be posting all future updates to a moderated forum on my own web site. http://www.ecstaticlyrics.com/pinnwand/ Unmoderated forums tend to suffer from people who can't be bothered to read the entire thread or who simply skim over things and miss the details, and these people cause the thread to become so redundant that even people who usually take the time to read carefully simply don't have the time or patience to sort through the nonsense to find the useful discussion. Evidence of this is the fact that many of those causing the problem have claimed that there is no useful discussion in this thread at all, a sign that they haven't been paying much attention, since there is useful discussion going on if only you can find it between all of the people shouting "spam, spam, spam!" (...and if no one gets that, I don't care.)

[susie sleeper]

PLEASE! Stop playing around and use your CPAP EXACTLY as the doctor tells you! That card records EVERYTHING, I repeat EVERYTHING - including whether you are awake or asleep. And YES you must have the second test done with CPAP so correct settings can be determined. Do it right and quit trying to self-diagnose & self-treat. That doesn't work.

[Julie]

Ya know, you remind me so much of an arrogant troll I once knew... come to think of it, it wasn't that long ago after all that I saw the reams of gobbledegook he wrote, and expected everyone to ingest every pearl of every line trying to make rational sense of it so they could help him... just can't remember the guy's name now... anyone?