Which graph(s) show REM sleep?

[GreenBean]

Recent thread discusses apap and REM and that OSA may increase in REM for some people. Which graphs indicate REM? (And while I'm asking about graphs, what does the "Minute vent." graph measure?)

[chunkyfrog]

REM can be measured in the lab, but not with your cpap machine.

[TASmart]

While I agree with the Frog, there are some who claim that REm sleep can be distinguished from other sleep due to a more erratic breathing pattern seen on the tidal volume graph, during REm sleep the tidal volumes are more erratic. I think one would have to be awfully experienced to even try to guess REm sleep from tidal volumes though. Better to stick with needing an EEG to determine REM sleep.

[rick blaine]

Hi Greenbean,

'Minute vent' or 'minute ventilation' is the volume of air breathed in and out in one minute. It is measured in litres.

The MV for the average male (average height, normal chest size, age 20-30) is 6 litres.

You get the MV by multiplying together resp rate and tidal volume.

The average tidal volume when awake is 500cc and the 'normal' resp rate is 12 bpm.

[Pugsy]

I have never really been comfortable enough with the data that the machines give us for isolating REM sleep stages. Remember these machines can't even tell if we are awake or asleep.
Now some people feel comfortable enough with flow rate patterns or tidal volumes or whatever....but I have never been able to distinguish enough difference reliably and that I could duplicate to say for sure.
What I have done is compare normal sleep stage cycles and when REM normally occurs and then compare my results either in pressure needs or maybe a little clustering of events.

So there are no graphs in the software report graphs that will for sure document sleep stages one way or the other.
These machines don't gather sleep status data so they can't report it.

What people usually do is review their own sleep studies (like mine shows that my OSA is really much worse in REM) and then compare the known to the data that they do have available and make some educated guesses.

Here's an old report of mine and the increases in pressure loosely correlate with when a person would normally see REM sleep and especially the last big increase when we normally see more REM at the end of the sleep cycle.
I don't have a good example using Sleepyhead. This is an old Encore report.

[GreenBean]

Ahh, thank you all. Those questions have been niggling in my brain since I started looking at my SleepyHead graphs, and I remember my sleep study showed I never made it into REM. I know I've had some REM since starting cpap because I occasionally remember a dream. And Pugsy, you are a goldmine of experience and information. Thank you!

[Pugsy]

We can dream in any sleep stage. Doesn't have to be REM.
Also the fact that we don't remember dreaming doesn't mean we don't get to REM and/or we don't dream....just means we didn't wake up during the dream to form a memory of the dream.
Remembering a lot of dreaming is actually a sign of fragmented sleep and not a good thing.