OT: Did the pastor handle the situation properly?

[Starlette]

OT: What is a Pastor to Do?
During the weekend, a situation occurred and I would like to have some feedback over how the situation was handled (the couples' names have been changed):

My parents' had some friends come over the weekend. They arrived on Friday. During the conversation, I asked Bill make us breakfast on Sunday and that I would come over for breakfast around 9:30am (Hubbs stay home). After a while, I left stating that I needed to go home and have dinner with my husband. They spent the night over Saturday night.

Instead of arriving Sunday at 9:30am, I arrived about 10am. Bill woke up around 11am very grumpy and upset. From what I had been told by Mom, whenever they come over, Bill always woke up in this kind of mood. He is a diabetic and refused to take his insulin shots that morning. So the ladies stepped outside to have their coffee and conversed for a while. Around 10:30am, I decided to take it upon myself to go wake Bill up knocking on the door with a cute voice. He refused to wake up. So we decided to make breakfast for ourselves (Dad and Mom, Sally and I).

When he finally woke up around 11am, he refused to take his insulin medication. As a result, he began to have a diabetic attack causing him to sweat and walk as a drunk man: Stumbling, falling, and broke some items in the kitchen. There were a few times Bill fell on the floor and then get up. Bill then proceeded to go outside still stumbling and fell again onto the cement, pulled himself up sitting on the patio couch. Mom and Sally tried to give Bill a chocolate treat along with some orange juice to help him. Sally also tried to persuade him to take his shots and eat the chocolate treat along with drinking the orage juice. He refused all help. After a while, Bill decided to take a nap on the outside patio couch. After several hours, we decided to have dinner. Hubbs came over with dinner. The four us went outside sitting on the porch table to eat dinner. After which Hubbs then went home. Bill refused to have dinner with us staying in the kitchen eating alone, then decided to come out to eat with the rest of us.

Then he began to be belligerent: Getting VERY ANGRY with the three of us, started arguments while at the same time started to use the "F" word. After the third time he used this word, I told him to shut up and that he was being very disrespectful towards my parents, Sally and I. This caused Bill to raise his voice even more. Then Bill went outside to the front porch stumbling, fell on the cement, got up and then fell asleep on the patio couch. After several hours, the sun began set.

When he finally woke up, Sally and Bill began arguing outside. Mom and I began to hear Sally crying so we went outside to see what was going on. Bill had taken her by the hair and pushed her onto the ground which caused her to cry. He was on top of her. Mom tried to physically get Bill off of Sally. After a little while, that behavior stopped. Then Bill and Sally came inside the house continuing to fight and argue with one another. Their voices started to escalate, and I was beginning to get concerned about my parents and myself. So I decided to call 911 and he took off in his car and my mom got in the car trying to reason with him. At this time, he was telling my mom that he wanted to kill himself. When the police officers arrived, Bill and my mom were gone. Sally was confronted by one police officer and Sally denied what all had transpired calling it "a disagreement". The officer then asked that I come outside to talk to him and I gave him as much information that I could, which was very little. So they decided to leave.

Then the phone rang. Mom had called asking if the police were gone which I told her yes. A little bit afterwards, she called again asking if I would call the pastor to come over to talk to Bill. When Pastor answered the phone, I begin to explain to what happened especially the part of Bill desiring to commit suicide. Pastor told me that he could not come over due to his threat of killing himself, something about this being the law. When Bill started talking about killing himself, Pastor was better off not talking to him and that it was time to call the authorities. When my mom called again, I explained to her what the pastor said refusing to come over, she was very angry with him stating that he had a responsibility to come over to talk to Bill to calm him. After I hung up the phone , Dad and I tried to reason with her as to what happened to amongst the two of them. At some point during the conversation, I disrupted her and told her that once Bill and my mom arrived they needed to leave. When Mom and Bill arrived, he hugged my mom saying that he was sorry; brushed his hand on my knee saying to me "I'm sorry". I told him that "I need to protect my parents", the apologized to my Dad. They packed up their belonging and left. Mom continued to say that she was very upset with the pastor. He had an obligation to talk with Bill about the situation, reasoning with him to not commit suicide. This morning as I talked to her, Mom stated that she will no longer go to Pastor's bible study that Dad and I could if we wanted to.

So in my long roundabout way, I'm asking for feedback: Did the pastor responded correctly in this situation to decline coming over or do you feel that he had an obligation to come over to talk to Bill and reason with him?

Starlette

[chunkyfrog]

IMHO, Bill was impaired due to his untreated diabetes. His behavior seems to be like an intoxicated person.
I believe your minister realized that no one--not even him, could reason with Bill in his condition.
The police are the appropriate ones to deal with him; and then put him somewhere safe to cool off and get back on his insulin.
Sometimes sick people cannot be "handled" by amateurs.

[greatunclebill]

i think the pastor was correct. call the police and let them come and assess the situation first. if the police determined that bill was not a danger to himself and others then they could ask the pastor or medics to intervene if they thought it neccessary. the main thing here is safety of all concerned. let the police do their job and take controlof the situation.

[BlackSpinner]

IMHO, Bill was impaired due to his untreated diabetes. His behavior seems to be like an intoxicated person.
I believe your minister realized that no one--not even him, could reason with Bill in his condition.
The police are the appropriate ones to deal with him; and then put him somewhere safe to cool off and get back on his insulin.
Sometimes sick people cannot be "handled" by amateurs.

Yes this. They are trained in the proper handling in a domestic situation. It is the most dangerous part of their work. There was absolutely nothing your pastor could have done and he made the correct call.

[CheBella]

If someone speaks of an intent to kill himself the pastor has a legal obligation to call the authorities.
Now, I don't know if that means the police, or his psychiatrist (if he has one) or an ambulance, or all of the above.

That does NOT mean that he is legally prohibited from coming over to try to help.

Did he indeed call anyone?
If he didn't, he either does not understand his reponsibilities under the law,
or he was just using it as an excuse the get him out of coming over.

It was a very difficult situation, but sometimes people respond to someone that they trust while they might get more aggressive and defensive when faced with the police. If "Bill" has/had a good relationship with the pastor, then he (pastor) might have helped.

I would probably be somewhat annoyed with the pastor, who might have, at the minimum tried to help you decide who to call.
My level of annoyance would rely on the answers to these questions:
1) Did he call any "authority" (police, shrink, and/or ambulance) to come over & deal with Bill;
2) Did he speak w/you or any other family members to try to help you deal with the situation;
3) Did he call back later to see how everyone was doing;
4) Has he mentioned the situation at all, or is he pretending it did not happen;
5) Did he come over, or offer to do so the next day or later in the week to follow up, since clearly the problem is not going to go away?

It sounds like an agonizing time was had by all, and certainly Sally's denial only adds to the problem.
Please confirm this for me: Sally & Bill are the friends of your parents who were houseguests?

PM me if you would like with an update of how things are now.

regards,

[Goofproof]

The pastor acted correctly. It seems that attention was wanted. Failure to treat your problems is a sign of alife of incorrect decisions.

Call the police, inform them of the problem, a 72 hour physiological hold is in order, after restraints are in place, have doctor balance the sugar levels and wait, It doesn't sound like this is abnormal for this person. If you expect a pastor to treat, he needs to bring a exorcism with him, not all pastors are trained in this.

Talking with your neighbors, is called for before they call Jerry Springer. Cleariy the wife and cops failed you, they were probably needed back on seat belt patrol. Jim

[SleepingUgly]

I can't believe it took you people all day to call 911. The guy was clearly a danger to himself and others.

As for the pastor, if he wasn't a therapist, I don't know if he'd have a duty to report suicide threats. He seemed to recognize this was above his pay grade and properly advised you to get authorities involved. Too bad the police didn't take him to an ER.

[jdm2857]

While the pastor may have been correct in not wanting to intervene with Bill, it seems to me
that he somehow could have more supportive to you, your parents, and Sally.

[Julie]

I agree that you (collectively, but most definitely Bill's wife) should have called for professional help of some kind by noon, never mind the whole pastor thing. He's not a doctor and would not necessarily have appreciated the situation - which I see as being absolutely a result of Bill's not taking his meds. He really needs to get help from his medical team (diabetics usually have those) and if his wife is too chicken to call and set up an intervention for him, then someone else should be doing it. He's a walking time bomb.

[ChicagoGranny]

I asked Bill make us breakfast on Sunday

Of all people, why Bill?

[Julie]

Oh, and I find it hard to believe that you woke him (early) while on vacation so he'd cook for you!

[BadBreath]

Too bad the police didn't take him to an ER.

When the police were there Bill had already gone, avoiding the authorities with help from his enabling friend, the mother. Can't detain a person who isn't there.

Mom and Sally tried to give Bill a chocolate treat along with some orange juice to help him.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, if he is not taking his insulin then his blood sugar is too high. More sugar he did not need. You eat some sugar if you take too much insulin and need to quickly bring your glucose levels back up because while high blood sugar will kill you slowly, low blood sugar can kill you very quickly. You'd think Sally would know the difference.


Your mother overestimates the role of the pastor in her family. He was being asked to deal with an out of town guest who, even if the pastor already knew, clearly wasn't his parishioner. He had neither the training nor the resources to deal with that level of unfamiliarity and uncertainty. And he probably already had a good idea of the dynamics of your family, maybe through past incidents of excessive expectation. He prudently and politely recused himself from a situation that for many reasons, both obvious and unacknowledged, he knew was outside of his ability to resolve.

Not to be impolite (it was you who aired this dirty laundry), but I think your mother is the key supporting bad actor in this drama, not the pastor. I'm willing to bet you already knew that.

[Bons]

I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I am a pastor. And a certified home health aide.

Badbreath may or not be correct. Without taking his blood sugar, it was impossible to tell if it was high or low. If low, then he needed sugar. But some diabetics are high in the morning because of liver function (some of my clients, and some of my parish members run high blood sugars in the morning prior to eating).

As a pastor, I don't know what else your parent's pastor could have done. If Sally and your mother were in denial with the police, why would they have been honest with the pastor? And if he were so out of whack medically, the pastor could not have reasoned with him any more than the rest of you. He needed MEDICAL attention. Had I been called, I probably would have shown up, but I'd have called 911 before leaving my house - been there, done that, and got the t-shirt from similar situations. And if it's like similar situations I've been in with mental health or escalated emotions, it's not easy to get people calmed down. Calling the pastor pisses them off and makes them deny everything and try to make the family seem over-reacting.

911 should have put out an APB when they had a medically fragile, probably erratic, driver putting his own life, your mother's life, and the lives of others in danger.

Of course, the way his health issues are not being dealt with you may soon need a pastor again - for the funeral.

[Bons]

Other things to consider.

Is Bob a member of a church? If not, then a pastor would have had little or no influence on him, and probably made him more hostile. Though I would have gone over, I doubt many pastors would.

Did your mother call to make sure that Bob and Sally made it home safely after he left, seems like late at night, with a medical problem causing impairment of judgment and possible blackouts? Unless Sally was driving, allowing him to leave was like letting a drunk behind the wheel. Why should the pastor be more concerned about his safety than the family and friends were? If loved ones could not convince him to check his blood sugar and take appropriate medical action, I doubt a clergyperson could. If his behavior was medically caused, no amount of pastoral counseling was going to help.

Pastor was only legally obligated to call police if he thought Bob was in IMMEDIATE danger of killing himself or someone else. The authorities get pretty ticked off at us when we call them about vague threats. We are legally mandated to report child abuse if we hear about it during the performance of our professional duties, but protected from reporting other crimes (and, can lose our professional standing if we violate confidential confessions of crimes other than child abuse).

[mystydragonfly]

I believe that the pastor handled the situation properly. When the police arrived, they should have been told exactly what happened. Bill was clearly physically ill and out of control. I suspect there may even be some domestic violence in this relationship. Sally is no doubt fearful of Bill. This is probably not the first or last time this will happen. I believe you did the right thing by calling 911. This situation was clearly explosive and out of control of anyone there and was above the pastors ability to handle. I think that if the truth of what happened would have been told to the police, it could have been handled properly by medical personal and/or law enforcement authorities.