HELP no Deep sleep Per Zeo

[SleepingBearDoNtWake]

Hi Everyone,

My sleep apnea treatment is going great, for the last year, but I'm still feeling horrid. Well in previous posts, I think I mentioned they found that I had low testosterone, low vitamin D. Then they found that I had a pituitary tumor and a thyroid nodule. The thyroid nodule is shrinking, and I just had more blood work, to check out the pituitary gland and how the testosterone treatment is going.
I got myself a Zeo, and believe it or not I am getting plenty of REM sleep which I was thinking maybe I wasn't getting any because of what I found out from my sleep study papers, but the problem seems is that I am only getting 25 minutes or less of deep sleep. This is suppose to be the phase when are bodies rebuild themselves, from what little I understand, and the zeo site isn't giving much info on anything that can be done. I am really so tired all the time, that maybe this is part of the the big mystery. Could it really have been that? If so, what can I do. A few others say they have the same problem, but no real solutions, or even things to try. I am desperate to feel better, it's been over 15 years, and I feel like everything is caving in on my now that I am working again, getting throught the day being tired all day, is the worst feeling.
Any ideas?

[kteague]

Sounds like you've got quite a few things going on that I have no idea how they might affect sleep architecture. Just wondering if any possibility of you having limb movements has already been ruled out? One reason I ask is PLMD (Periodic Limb Movement Disorder) generally (not always) spares REM but not deep sleep, which seems to be what your Zeo is saying is happening with your sleep.

[themonk]

It is hard to say with any certainty, but I do believe that the bulk of deep sleep happens during the first few hours in bed and tapers off, replaced by more and more REM sleep.

The first thing I would do is to look at the DOZER information on Zeo's website to determine how I compare to people my age. You don't list how old you are, but that amount of deep sleep might be appropriate. There is a wide range of sleep distribution patterns, but most fall into a general 'architecture' or pattern. The distribution of that pattern varies by age and gender.

http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/knowledge-ce ... ts-your-zq

Second, I would take a real close look at what is happening in the first 1/3 - 1/2 of the time I am in bed. Are there many wake-ups showing in Zeo? Do you have a data-capable PAP machine? Check to see if you are having a lot of leaks, breathing events, etc in the first few hours after falling asleep. Is there a lot of environmental noise - traffic, birds, dogs, kids, etc? Is your room cool enough?

If all of that looks fine, you could try the Zeo coaching tool through their website. They offer some approaches to improving sleep quality such as guided meditation which might help.

You could also check out Barry Krakow's book and take a good, hard look at a bunch of different ways to deal with all kinds of sleep problems. This book was recommended by one of the most experienced people on the board, RobySue, and I am finding it extremely interesting and useful so far.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Sleep-Mind- ... 914&sr=1-1

[lazer]

I get very little to no "Deep Sleep" per the Zeo but I have been noticing an increase in my REM sleep. And my dreams are back again post (in-home) sleep study about 3 weeks ago without the blower which for some reason took my dreams away for some period of time.

[MaxDarkside]

I get very little to no "Deep Sleep" per the Zeo

I've been getting about 45 minutes per night, per Zeo. Looking at my brain waves, I think it might under-estimate the amount of deep. I get a "fish eye" separation of waves and correlation in Betas and the Zeo generally counts a portion, the last part, of those fish eyes.

but I have been noticing an increase in my REM sleep. And my dreams are back again post (in-home) sleep study about 3 weeks ago without the blower which for some reason took my dreams away for some period of time.

As a "data point", I'm dreaming about the same on and off xPAP. It is probably because my apneas are highly positional so if I'm "Remming along" on my side before, I was dreaming about as much.

[lazer]

I get very little to no "Deep Sleep" per the Zeo

I've been getting about 45 minutes per night, per Zeo. Looking at my brain waves, I think it might under-estimate the amount of deep. I get a "fish eye" separation of waves and correlation in Betas and the Zeo generally counts a portion, the last part, of those fish eyes.

but I have been noticing an increase in my REM sleep. And my dreams are back again post (in-home) sleep study about 3 weeks ago without the blower which for some reason took my dreams away for some period of time.

As a "data point", I'm dreaming about the same on and off xPAP. It is probably because my apneas are highly positional so if I'm "Remming along" on my side before, I was dreaming about as much.

Not trying to hijack the thread but since this is very much on topic: (Note, I had some poor sleep hygiene as I stayed up late to watch my Steelers lose thus the delayed time to sleep but Anyhoo, from last night)

Also note: The deep sleep percentage/pattern is pretty much spot on consistently via my reports as to the duration and reduced sessions that list.

[Sir NoddinOff]

There is a wide range of sleep distribution patterns, but most fall into a general 'architecture' or pattern. The distribution of that pattern varies by age and gender. http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/knowledge-ce ... ts-your-zq

That's a good link monk, thanks for putting it up. I wonder how accurate these figures are tho? Kinda makes me wonder how much "restorative healing" is going on in 30 to 60 minutes a night?

[remstarcpap]

I have a zeo, and get between 45 min and 90 min of deep sleep a night. (I'm 55). Going to bed at 12 increases it, and going to bed at 2am decreases it.

[chunkyfrog]

My guess is the people most likely to be using a Zeo, are those who perceive their sleep to be sub-optimal.
The cost would rule out anyone who has no complaints.
Remember, the poll is among Zeo users, who I assume all paid for their own units.
Hubby's numbers are in the "normal" range, I got the Zeo for him.
On the other hand, on the few nights I have used it, my numbers are far above the averages listed...
I really don't need it and am not likely to use it much myself.
My evil plan is to encourage him into better sleep habits.

[kutastha]

The 25 minutes the OP describes is quite low.

At the same time, I am skeptical of the ability of the Zeo to detect REM sleep (which often results in an increase in alpha over the posterior part of the brain). I'm curious if the receiver depends on the electrical activity from the eye movements to measure it. Deep should be fairly straightforward as the EEG is obvious in this stage.

I'm a neurologist and almost always talk about sleep with my patients. So many factors influence the quality of our sleep, even in people without sleep apnea. As you got the Zeo to help your sleep, really do the things those "coach" emails advise.

Do you fall asleep with the TV on? Despite your being unconscious, your brain continues to process outside sounds and light. Sit on the computer before going to bed? Light is an activating thing and can also disrupt sleep, delaying deep sleep.

[kaiasgram]

I have a zeo, and get between 45 min and 90 min of deep sleep a night. (I'm 55). Going to bed at 12 increases it, and going to bed at 2am decreases it.

I don't have a ZEO, so thanks for posting this -- I've been a late late late night owl for years and since getting my OSA dx I've been thinking I should move my bedtime up a little earlier to clean up my sleep hygiene.

[lazer]

Well I'm starting to get the red marks indented in my forehead and last throughout the day and ironically my bedside zeo is reporting "Time to replace sensors".... Guess here is where the expense starts building up if I'm to continue using this thing.