Question about zeo

[Kairosgrammy]

Just curious, I've seen a few posts about the zeo. How does it work? I always take my cpap and always have my laptop so I don't think a zeo would be that beneficial. I just don't understand how the data gets to the zeo. I'm somewhat technologically advanced for my age but apparently, not enough.

[MaxDarkside]

Here's my micro-explanation:

Overall, Zeo is a "sleep management system". You wear a headband with a 3 contact patch (metallic fabric) sensors and it measures and records electrical activity of the skin in your forehead to sense and record your brain waves, which then it classifies into sleep stages: Wake, REM, Light, and Deep sleep. The headband is pretty comfortable, I think. It comes in two types of systems; a bedside alarm clock (i have this) and also a version which works with iPhones, I think. (Zeo Mobile)

http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/

I have this:
http://www.myzeo.com/sleep/shop/zeo-sle ... dside.html

You can buy it cheaper on Amazon.

I got the Bedside version because:

1) it records the data to a SD card. It is accessible in various ways (upload to their website and get reports and charts, coaching, etc) or by changing the driver in the Zeo, you can get a primitive viewer for your PC and not have to upload and if you are a programmer type (I am) you can write software to use the data as you like.
2) it is a smart alarm clock, that can wake you before your alarm time as it senses your sleep stages at an opportune timing so you feel better.
3) the bedside unit also has a serial port that if you make a USB / Serial cable (yourself or find someone who can) you can get real-time streaming brainwaves and such. If you are a programmer type you can capture that real time data and use it as you see fit.

The sleep stages Zeo classifies are *sort of* accurate. They are sometimes off by one level of sleep now and then, but it is a good guide.

[MaxDarkside]

Here is my Zeo sleep chart from last night...



It does not record arousals very well, what you see are 5 minute bars, but more significant awakenings, which you will remember the awakenings occurring, but the Zeo records them so you know when they were. I'd like to use the raw brain wave data to see if I can detect and log arousals, if possible. Don't know if I can yet, as I'm awaiting parts to make the serial cable.

I like the pie chart, which is based on 30 second data, as it tells me pretty well how much REM and Deep I got, which are important.

The ZQ you see in the upper left is a sleep quality score they calculate (on the web and also on the bedside unit). 78 is pretty good for a 54 year old coot like me It's more like what a 30 year old would get for sleep, when they ain't partying

I bought mine on Amazon for $122 plus shipping. For me, as an Uber Nerd, it is well worth it. Your satisfaction may vary

[Kairosgrammy]

Maybe later. I think I'm already on information overload with Sleepyhead.

Here is my Zeo sleep chart from last night...



It does not record arousals very well, what you see are 5 minute bars, but more significant awakenings, which you will remember the awakenings occurring, but the Zeo records them so you know when they were. I'd like to use the raw brain wave data to see if I can detect and log arousals, if possible. Don't know if I can yet, as I'm awaiting parts to make the serial cable.

I like the pie chart, which is based on 30 second data, as it tells me pretty well how much REM and Deep I got, which are important.

The ZQ you see in the upper left is a sleep quality score they calculate (on the web and also on the bedside unit). 78 is pretty good for a 54 year old coot like me It's more like what a 30 year old would get for sleep, when they ain't partying

I bought mine on Amazon for $122 plus shipping. For me, as an Uber Nerd, it is well worth it. Your satisfaction may vary

[MaxDarkside]

Maybe later. I think I'm already on information overload with Sleepyhead.

I'm in the data analysis business for 20 years, travel the world, from Malaysia to Moscow, solving all sorts of people's challenges through data analysis and I'm getting data overload too ! My numb is getting brain. LOL

[Kairosgrammy]

Maybe later. I think I'm already on information overload with Sleepyhead.

I'm in the data analysis business for 20 years, travel the world, from Malaysia to Moscow, solving all sorts of people's challenges through data analysis and I'm getting data overload too ! My numb is getting brain. LOL

I can truly see why. But I keep plugging away at it.

[LittleRedTruck]

I have done some study about Xeo. I believe the technology might be valid, but wonder what the practical application might be. I know with the sleep coach, room darkening, bed and pillow recommendations are given, etc. But, with a complex sleep disorder I have concentrated on these things for years. I dont believe I can make many improvements in those areas, to enhance my sleep. As a data analysis expert,, what have you learned from the device that has improved your quality of sleep. That has made you feel better ? Thanks dan

[MaxDarkside]

...As a data analysis expert,, what have you learned from the device that has improved your quality of sleep. That has made you feel better ? Thanks dan

I'm just starting with this, have only been on the Zeo 3-4 nights. There's a few things I find to be an advantage so far... One is the ZQ which is calculated from various metrics the Zeo tracks. It does, so far, seem to correlate with how I feel during the day. At least it's something measurable about sleep quality, sort of like AHI. Another metric on quality is good. I will create some of my own too. Next, I like knowing how much REM, Light and Deep sleep I have had, but I can also deduce that from the CMS-50E pulse Oximeter I have, maybe more accurately than the Zeo, but now with Zeo what I thought I saw regarding sleep stages in the oximeter is confirmed.

Next up: I am undertaking a study of those factors I can influence and also those factors that quantify my sleep quality and I will create a system that will tell me what affects my sleep, to what degree, then after that, if I get good results doing that I will optimize those factors to maximize my quality.

Yes, you may have through your experience and "on board computer" (the human brain is very powerful in sorting things out) come to near optimal treatment already. I probably am too, or will shortly, just looking and learning. My analysis will take me up a wee bit more is all, I think.

[MaxDarkside]

Here's my controllable factors and results / performance variables in a "Mind Map" (handy tool) as I sort out what I can control and what metrics I have or can create. Not finished yet, but probably mostly there:



Like I said before, when Sleep Apnea revealed itself, I said, "Oh boy, you picked on the WRONG guy!" LOL

[Jay Aitchsee]

Dan, see the thread, My Zeo below.

I see the Zeo as just another tool. I believe it to be reasonably accurate in reporting of sleep stages, awakenings, and time awake. I think its value lies in being able to objectively evaluate the influence of outside factors on sleep, such as environment and medication, rather than just how one feels. Changes can be made, and the Zeo reports can be monitored for trends. I have found it to be useful in determining the effects of different medications. Some cause increase or decrease in REM, some cause increased awakenings, etc.

The shortcoming of Zeo is the inability (out of the box) to provide data on micro arousals and brief awakenings. By design, it does not score awakenings less than two minutes. However, since the machine does provide a method to directly monitor brainwaves, theoretically one could monitor and score arousals with the right equipment. (as Max is working on).

I think Max is on the right track. Sleep is such a complex mechanism, influenced by so many factors, one has to be able to isolate the factors in order to make any meaningful progress in improvement. Zeo is just an aid in doing that.

Zeo has helped me sort through a number of medications, none of which contributed positively to my sleep. Zeo caused me to look elsewhere for answers and led me to have my Vitamin D, B, thyroid, etc. checked. These were found to be low and now, after a few months of supplementation, I am feeling less fatigued, and my deep sleep is improving. Without Zeo, I'd probably still be taking the meds prescribed a couple years ago and still feeling lousy.

Jay

[ameriken]

I've thought about getting the zeo to see the quality of sleep I'm getting and if there could be other factors affecting me since I still have a difficulty waking up. It takes me quite a while to push myself out of bed and a while more to actually become a functioning human being. Once I reached that, I'm ok and feel good, it's mostly that first 3 or 4 hours. Does anyone know how much of the rem and deep sleep are we supposed to be getting each night?

[MaxDarkside]

... Does anyone know how much of the rem and deep sleep are we supposed to be getting each night?

I'm not sure about "supposed to be getting", but Zeo reports that they see in uploaded data that they see 25-30% REM and 10-15% Deep. That's probably a biased sample, tho, because a disproportionate number of people who use Zeo may be afflicted, like us. I've scoured the internet some and the search engines obfuscate the ability to find the answer, as they get stuck on "how much sleep to I need" instead of "how much REM and Deep" and what I find is more about what people get, which is similar to Zeo's findings, vs. what they *should* get.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Ameriken, there is no one answer to your question. The average amount of time in each stage varies from individual to individual. Research suggests that as we get older, the amount of time spent in deep sleep decreases, REM stays fairly constant, and awake time increases. Maybe as important as the amount of time is the structure of your sleep. That you move through the stages in 90-120 minute cycles. Generally, as Max said, something around 25% REM and 10-15% Deep would be typical. Sleep fractured by awakenings usually presents with more REM, Less deep, and more awake. Usually, as REM increases, deep decreases. Many meds seems to cause this. Pain often causes sleep disturbance resulting in decreased deep. And of course, arousals from apnea and PLM as well.
From my early PSG's and later from the ZEO I found my own deep sleep to be less than 3% and I felt terribly fatigued. Even getting my apnea under control didn't improve my deep and I continued to be fatigued. As I mentioned in an earlier post, since I started supplements of D3, B12, and T4, my deep has slowly improved toward 10% and I feel better.
Your difficulty waking up could be caused by a drug hangover, or abnormal sleep architecture, or waking from the "wrong" sleep stage. Waking from deep sleep reportedly causes that feeling. I've also read that getting too much deep sleep (never been my problem) causes such feelings. A Zeo might give you a clue as to the cause. Can't say, but If I were you, I'd consider it. I think the bedside unit is under $140 now.
Wearing the Zeo with a FFM is a little tricky, but I've modified my Quattro and it works just fine. I've got a post somewhere around here explaining it.

Jay

[MaxDarkside]

Wearing the Zeo with a FFM is a little tricky, but I've modified my Quattro and it works just fine.

I have a Quattro FX (Large) and I just put the Zeo headband on first, then carefully put on the mask/headgear and all is well.

[DocWeezy]

The information I get from my Zeo had enabled me to track down and "fix" other sleep issues beyond OSA. I knew I was still tired and my AHI was great....getting a Zeo showed me how fragmented my sleep was and that I wasn't getting hardly any REM or deep sleep.

I've used it for about a year now, and for me, if I get about 1.5 - 2 hours of REM and 1 - 1.5 hours of deep sleep, I feel pretty darn good the next day, even if my overall sleep is only about 6 hours. But if my REM and deep levels drop below that, I feel awful no matter how long I actually slept. De-fragging my sleep also helped tremendously. For me, the actual percentage of those sleep stages isn't as important as how long I'm in them at night....on the rare nights I get 7 or more hours of sleep, my REM and deep stages are a lower percentage, and vice versa; but as long as I have the minimum of 1.5 hours for REM and 1 hour for deep, I do ok even on 4 to 5 hours of sleep (which happens much more than I'd like).

Getting my OSA under control was just a first step....I still felt like crap even once my AHI was controlled. It was only being able to see what else was happening to my sleep that enabled me to take control and make the necessary changes so that I routinely get good REM and deep sleep cycles with a low percentage of awake time during the night.

I love my Zeo!

Weezy