Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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brain_cloud
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Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by brain_cloud » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:26 pm

OK, maybe not definitive, but it's more data. You recall the discussion of the "dangers" of mouth taping and my first experiment back here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70303&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... 999e3aae72 The main issue here is whether one gets sufficient oxygen under the following regime: mouth taped, nasal mask, connected via hose to a machine that has been powered down, either through happenstance or malice.

I don't recall the length of the hose getting much attention, but it may be crucial, since this kind of seems like a variation of the "long snorkel" problem. I used the following apparati in this experiment:

6-foot hose (Resmed Climateline)
Respironics Comfort Gel Nasal Mask
My trusty recording oximeter, the name of which eludes me right now; something something "50" I think
Johnson&Johnson cloth tape
One dirty sock

Thus:

Image

Now, the experiment. Once again, after a bit of baseline data, 20 minutes of breathing nasally with hose attached to mask (but not to the machine; this wrinkle, suggested by a poster in the earlier thread, is the only difference from the earlier experiment). And the recording oximeter watching the whole thing. But this time, a flash of inspiration came to me. How about seeing what would happen if the hose is taken out of the equation and we see what happens if I breathe entirely through the teeny weeny pinholes between the eyes on the mask. Impossible! Monstrous! Absurd! Gentlepersons, save your ejaculations until you have seen the evidence in its entirety. I shall make believers of you.

Anyway, I had no means to close off the hose-nozzle of the mask, and the 5-minute point of hoseless, free breathing through the mask after the main event, had almost elapsed. What to do? Glancing about me, I espied a dirty sock on the floor, a relic of forgotten revels of the past weekend, most likely. In triumph, I snatched it up and stuffed it into the end of the mask hose nozzle. Immediately it became clear that those tiny pinholes were...very tiny indeed! Still, you can breathe through them, as can be seen below:


Image

harry33
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Location: melbourne, australia

Re: Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by harry33 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:01 pm

I wanted to use a nose only mask and so I taped my lips shut for a while to teach myself to keep my mouth shut
ovviously the person needs to be not drunk or drugged, and the tape needs to be doubled back on each side to form a tear off strip

eventuallya power failure made me wake from the pressure of nose breathing thru mask, I hadnt opened my mouth at all
australian,anxiety and insomnia, a CPAP user since 1995, self diagnosed after years of fatigue, 2 cheap CPAPs and respironics comfortgell nose only mask. not one of my many doctors ever asked me if I snored

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SleepingUgly
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Re: Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by SleepingUgly » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:36 pm

What's the scenario between 16:21 and 16:43?

So between 16:43 and 17:03, you are breathing with the 6' hose attached, but detached from the machine. To simulate what real-life possible situation exactly?

Between 17:03 and 17:08 you are breathing through a hole the size of the opening of the hose (where the hose attaches to the mask), is that right?

Is the sock-stuffed part supposed to simulate being attached to a non-working machine? If so, why did you lose the hose?

In the interest of generalization to real life situations of interest, please do the following simulations:

(B) Baseline
(1) Hose connected to mask and machine, but machine off (and please do longer than 5 minutes)
(2) Hose disconnected from mask using nasal mask
(3) Same scenario as #2 but with pillows, leaving the 12" hose that goes with the mask attached but disconnected from the 6' hose
Never put your fate entirely in the hands of someone who cares less about it than you do. --Sleeping Ugly

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brain_cloud
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Re: Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by brain_cloud » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:39 pm

SleepingUgly wrote:What's the scenario between 16:21 and 16:43?
I think reading on the couch, no mask.
So between 16:43 and 17:03, you are breathing with the 6' hose attached, but detached from the machine. To simulate what real-life possible situation exactly?
In a power off situation, it shouldn't matter if the hose is attached to the machine or not, since the machine is "porous". But in the thread referenced earlier I did do 20 minutes attached to the powered off machine.
Between 17:03 and 17:08 you are breathing through a hole the size of the opening of the hose (where the hose attaches to the mask), is that right?


Correct.
Is the sock-stuffed part supposed to simulate being attached to a non-working machine? If so, why did you lose the hose?
No, it's a worse situation. It would happen if some nefarious character were to clamp your hose shut completely while you were masked up.

Really, my purpose there was to demonstrate that those little holes support more robust respiration than people realize.

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archangle
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Re: Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by archangle » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:48 pm

brain_cloud wrote:Really, my purpose there was to demonstrate that those little holes support more robust respiration than people realize.
With the hose plugged up, you will generate significant positive and negative pressure within the mask, increasing the flow of CO2/O2 in and out of the vent holes. With an unplugged hose attached to the mask, you will have a lower pressure in the mask, and the airflow through the vent holes will be less. I would expect your O2 level to be better with a plugged tube than with a dead machine attached because you're breathing almost entirely fresh air, even though you are struggling mightily to get it.

The information is interesting, but has very little bearing on the situation of a failed CPAP machine.

The failed CPAP situation is more like putting a leaky bag filled with air over your head and breathing in and out of that.

If some nefarious character clamps your hose shut during the night, I think you'll probably wake up. Your brain will react much more strongly to having your airflow stopped completely or severely restricted than it will to having the O2 level go down and the CO2 level go up gradually. For instance, almost nobody ever completely suffocates from obstructive apnea. They almost always wake up if their unconscious struggles don't clear their airway before they die.

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The Choker
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Re: Mouth Taping Redux: The Definitive Experiment

Post by The Choker » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:53 pm

brain_cloud wrote:Image

SleepingUgly wrote:What's the scenario between 16:21 and 16:43?
I think reading on the couch, no mask.
So between 16:43 and 17:03, you are breathing with the 6' hose attached, but detached from the machine. To simulate what real-life possible situation exactly?
In a power off situation, it shouldn't matter if the hose is attached to the machine or not, since the machine is "porous". But in the thread referenced earlier I did do 20 minutes attached to the powered off machine.
Between 17:03 and 17:08 you are breathing through a hole the size of the opening of the hose (where the hose attaches to the mask), is that right?


Correct.
Is the sock-stuffed part supposed to simulate being attached to a non-working machine? If so, why did you lose the hose?
No, it's a worse situation. It would happen if some nefarious character were to clamp your hose shut completely while you were masked up.

Really, my purpose there was to demonstrate that those little holes support more robust respiration than people realize.
His last post. Do you think maybe he suffocated himself to death with some of this experimenting with tape and dirty socks?
T.C.