Wrap Up of POLL/Study: - Does Counselling Help

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.

For Emotional or Mental Problems - Does Counselling (Talk Therapy) Help

Never
0
No votes
Sometimes
18
21%
Most Times
12
14%
Always
4
5%
I Have Never Tried It
6
7%
Yes - It Did Work For Me
19
22%
No - It Did Not Work For Me
8
9%
Talking To A Friend or Neighbour Works Best
8
9%
We Should Solve Our Own Problems
3
4%
Mars Is The One Who Needs It Most
7
8%
 
Total votes: 85

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mars
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Wrap Up of POLL/Study: - Does Counselling Help

Post by mars » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:51 pm

Hi All

Here is the latest report on the value of counselling (talk therapy), and you are invited to express your opinion in the poll and in the thread. With only 10 options available, the obvious one of the competency of the counsellor has been left out of the poll, but not forgotten .

The link to the report at Medscape Today News is at -

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/750 ... ws&spon=12

and the large print version is below -
Referral to Talk Therapy Cuts Costs, Improves Outcomes

by Megan Brooks

October 5, 2011 — Adults with common mental health problems such as depression and anxiety consume more health resources than those without, a new study from the United Kingdom confirms.

"This is across the board," Professor Simon de Lusignan, MD(Res), from the Department of Health Care Management and Policy, University of Surrey, Guildford, United Kingdom, told Medscape Medical News. They have more inpatient days, outpatient and emergency department visits, and sick days than those patients without common mental health problems, he said.
Professor Simon de Lusignan

Importantly, Dr. de Lusignan added, the study also shows that referring patients with common mental health problems to psychological therapy reduces healthcare utilization and sick time, and may improve adherence to drug therapy.

The improved adherence is "probably the most important finding because if people take their medications they generally will remain healthier, which will save money in the long run," Philip R. Muskin, MD, clinical psychiatry professor at Columbia University in New York City and distinguished fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, noted in an interview with Medscape Medical News.

The study was published online October 3 in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.

A Model for the United States?

The Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) program is a fairly new government-backed initiative in the United Kingdom. It was piloted in 2006 and is now available nationwide.

The program is designed to help people cope better with their mental health problems through timely access to effective interventions and reduce the economic burden to society of psychological illness, Dr. de Lusignan and colleagues explain in their report.

The investigators set out to quantify the effect of common mental health problems on the use of health services and see what effect the IAPT program is having. They assessed routinely collected healthcare data for 152,328 patients registered with primary care physicians in East London and Yorkshire.

They found that 22% of these individuals had been diagnosed with depression or anxiety at some point, and that these individuals used significantly (P < .001) more health resources than those without mental health problems.

The patients with depression or anxiety also logged more days in the hospital or the emergency department and had more outpatient visits. They were also issued nearly 10 times more sick notes than those without mental health problems.

This is not surprising, Dr. Muskin said. "It's well known that depressed people are high users of medical care because they are unhappy and physically miserable; they have aches and pains, they don't do what they are told, and those are just the big issues," he said

Reduced Use

According to Dr. de Lusignan, the "before and after comparison of people referred for psychological therapies showed that referral was associated with subsequently attending the emergency department less, having fewer sickness certificates, and complying better with antidepressant medication." All comparisons were significant at a P value < .001.

"The message (if repeated in other studies) is that referral to psychological therapies may reduce presentation with physical illness and sickness absence," Dr. de Lusignan said.

Antidepressant use also increased with referral to psychological services. This "may signify better compliance with therapy or possibly indicate that those referred to IAPT were presenting in a more acute phase," the investigators write.

Unfortunately, only about 6% of patients with a mental health problem were referred to the program during the study period. The vast majority of those referred were between 20 and 54 years old; "relatively few" were older than 65 years. Nearly two thirds were women. Referred patients tended to be white and from more socially deprived areas.

"At a time where there is pressure to control increasing health costs, this study suggests that IAPT may contribute to reducing health service usage," the study team concludes.

Savings in the Long Run

"In general," said Dr. Muskin, "this class of research basically shows that the more effort you make, the better people do, and generally the less it costs. That is, with collaborative care there is better care and less utilization, although that's not true up front because you're adding in psychologists, nurses, and social workers, for example."

"Early on," he added, "collaborative costs more, and it takes a couple of years until you break even, and then you start to see overall savings. This isn't where peoples' heads are these days; it's more 'How much less can it cost now?' "

"I think this article exposes that you can give better care, which eventually saves money. Good care always saves money, but you have to put money into the system," he said.

"It's a nicely done study," Dr. Muskin added; "it's not biased in anyway; no one is looking over your shoulder in this kind of study."

The study was supported by the National Institute for Health Research. The authors and Dr. Muskin have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

J Epidemiol Community Health. Published online October 3, 2011. Abstract
and the original source is at

http://jech.bmj.com/

Mars
Last edited by mars on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
for an an easier, cheaper and travel-easy sleep apnea treatment :D

http://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic/t7020 ... rapy-.html

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Re: POLL/Study: Emotional/Mental Problems, Does Counselling Help

Post by Bons » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:58 pm

In my husband's case, firing his entire church council would be the best treatment! He could probably go off his stomach meds and afib ones as well.

I have a great doctor who knows me well. Whenever I go in with a medical condition she asks, "is this biological or psychological in nature?". I can come up with some bizarre stress-induced problems - the last was bleeding varicose veins in my bladder

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by ThirdOutOfFive » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:28 pm

On my second round of talk therapy; not going well. Do hope that others get better results than I. . . .

Bons, is your hubby a minister? Has he heard about the minister who managed to get rid of the mice in the church without cost? Seems he baptised all of them and put them on the church roll. He never saw them again!

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by BlackSpinner » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:48 pm

I have done peer counselling, worked on a crisis line and used talk therapy. I have also used journaling, meditation and a variety of stress release techniques. They all work to the extend that you are willing to invest time and energy into them. The best is a combination of personal work like journaling and meditation and talk therapy. That way you take some responsibility to keep it going and use the expensive therapists time to delve deeply and take some risks.

And I have seen studies that it doesn't have to be a human you are talking to, a paraphrasing AI computer will do as well for many minor issues.

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by Bons » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:50 pm

ThirdOutOfFive wrote:On my second round of talk therapy; not going well. Do hope that others get better results than I. . . .

Bons, is your hubby a minister? Has he heard about the minister who managed to get rid of the mice in the church without cost? Seems he baptised all of them and put them on the church roll. He never saw them again!

I confirmed the bat in our bellfry a few years ago.... never saw 'em again.

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by nobody » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:03 am

Somehow I don't think that spending money for talk therapy is going to make my meds affordable. What a joke.

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by NightMonkey » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:43 am

Everyone with these types of problems should be screened for sleep-disordered breathing before talk therapy is even considered. Everyone that screens positive should get a full diagnosis and good treatment.

An expanded physical should be done to find other physical problems.

Too many people are sitting with talk therapists, sometimes for years, when their major problems are physical and go undiagnosed/untreated. This is a shame and a waste of money.

The whole branch of therapy where they try to find something that happened to you as a child and pin it as the cause of all your problems is bullbleep and should be thrown out.

If you are cleared of all physical problems and still have emotional problems, then you need a practitioner who will first get you into a consistently good diet, a good regular exercise program, and consistently good sleep hygiene. (And quit sitting on your butt watching TV 7.5 hours per day which is the U.S. average.) This will clear up a tremendous number of cases.

If you are still having problems, then the practitioner should speak to you about letting go of all your guilt feelings, apologizing to all whom you have truly wronged, developing some healthy and close friendships, and doing some good charity work for people you know.

There are a few good therapists who work like this but most don't.

Repeating myself, the Freudian bullbleep that many still practice should be avoided entirely.
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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by rocklin » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:05 am

nobody wrote:Somehow I don't think that spending money for talk therapy . . .
Nobody, you don't have to spend a dime!

Simply put a cell-phone head-set on, go into an airport lounge and hold a furious, profane conversation with youself.

I do it all the time, and find it very cathartic.

__________________________________________________________________________

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due to too much drinking
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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by VVV » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:39 am

NightMonkey wrote:Everyone with these types of problems should be screened for sleep-disordered breathing before talk therapy is even considered. Everyone that screens positive should get a full diagnosis and good treatment.

An expanded physical should be done to find other physical problems.

Too many people are sitting with talk therapists, sometimes for years, when their major problems are physical and go undiagnosed/untreated. This is a shame and a waste of money.

The whole branch of therapy where they try to find something that happened to you as a child and pin it as the cause of all your problems is bullbleep and should be thrown out.

If you are cleared of all physical problems and still have emotional problems, then you need a practitioner who will first get you into a consistently good diet, a good regular exercise program, and consistently good sleep hygiene. (And quit sitting on your butt watching TV 7.5 hours per day which is the U.S. average.) This will clear up a tremendous number of cases.

If you are still having problems, then the practitioner should speak to you about letting go of all your guilt feelings, apologizing to all whom you have truly wronged, developing some healthy and close friendships, and doing some good charity work for people you know.

There are a few good therapists who work like this but most don't.

Repeating myself, the Freudian bullbleep that many still practice should be avoided entirely.
Good post. You show some wisdom beyond your years.
.....................................V

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by nobody » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:09 am

Good plan, rocklin, although I think I'll go get on a city bus and do it, then maybe a coffee shop downtown, lol

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by ameriken » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:14 am

@NightMonkey: great post!

I do think counseling is helpful...so long as the person getting counseling actually needs counseling and not something else.

Take depression for example. I think many forms of depression are the result of something going on physically than mentally/emotionally and sleep apnea is a great example of the many misdiagnoses that are out there. When I complained of continual fatigue to my MD, he first said it was low-T. After taking care of the low-T, I still had fatigue and so his next step was anti-depressants. I refused because I was tired, and not depressed. However I could easily see how one could end up being depressed with sleep apnea. But still...taking care of the apnea will take care of the depression in that case.

True forms of depression can cause a person to feel tired and fatigued. But I think doctors are looking at it the other way around....that tired and fatigued means they are depressed. So docs give folks happy pills and send them for hours upon hours of therapy, when all they need is a simple sleep study and a CPAP machine (or exercise, change in diet, etc).
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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by kteague » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:22 pm

I think there's so many variables in situations it would be hard for one blanket approach to be applicable in every situation. That said, I do lean heavily toward feeling mood altering drugs should rarely be given without ruling out possible treatable physical causes first. Once meds are started it's like looking through a cloudy lens to find a diagnosis. Now, talk therapy, I feel is a reasonable time-limited first course of action for some. Admittedly, I am basing this solely on personal experience.

When it is obvious someone's life is in utter chaos, sorting though the issues can be of priceless value. Had a "friend" who was on many psych meds and ended up intentionally overdosing on them - nearly died. The meds could not fix her regrets and deep sorrow over her life choices, that she had destroyed her marriage, abandoned her kids, and had engaged in a self destructive lifestyle with an abusive partner. Maybe talk therapy could have helped her depression.

On a more personal level, I was put on multiple mood altering drugs at the age of 23 after my husband was murdered and I had just 2 days before given birth to my 2nd child. The meds were supposed to help me cope, help me sleep, and help me function. Instead, they either masked or intensified what I now believe to have been a blend of post-partum and situational depression. The meds hindered my ability to think clearly and I struggled with hopelessness with suicidal and homicidal urges. Once off the meds, talking with wise informal counselors and supporters helped me sort through my tangled emotions and I began to heal. I was in my 30's before I saw a professional counselor, and a few visits with their strategic questions helped me tie up some loose ends.

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by Guest112011 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:05 pm

Hey, Mars, were's the spot for bartender?
And NO, I'm not going to login.
Baaaawwwwwkk

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by BlackSpinner » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:17 pm

NightMonkey wrote:Everyone with these types of problems should be screened for sleep-disordered breathing before talk therapy is even considered. Everyone that screens positive should get a full diagnosis and good treatment.

An expanded physical should be done to find other physical problems.

Too many people are sitting with talk therapists, sometimes for years, when their major problems are physical and go undiagnosed/untreated. This is a shame and a waste of money.

The whole branch of therapy where they try to find something that happened to you as a child and pin it as the cause of all your problems is bullbleep and should be thrown out.

If you are cleared of all physical problems and still have emotional problems, then you need a practitioner who will first get you into a consistently good diet, a good regular exercise program, and consistently good sleep hygiene. (And quit sitting on your butt watching TV 7.5 hours per day which is the U.S. average.) This will clear up a tremendous number of cases.

If you are still having problems, then the practitioner should speak to you about letting go of all your guilt feelings, apologizing to all whom you have truly wronged, developing some healthy and close friendships, and doing some good charity work for people you know.

There are a few good therapists who work like this but most don't.

Repeating myself, the Freudian bullbleep that many still practice should be avoided entirely.
Well that shows a total lack of understanding of the subject.

Yes the physical needs to evaluated but I highly doubt you can get a depressed and suicidal teen out to go running with you everyday without some kind of intervention, trust me on this, been there, tried that. ( Though she did say later that being forced to run around the block with her old mother huffing in a purple track suit was so humiliating that she worked harder to get her meds and counselling working right)

Also There are many different kinds of therapy practices. It is a lot like masks - it has to fit the person, the problem and the time frame. What works for you will not work for others.

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Re: POLL/Study:Emotional/Mental Problems - Does Counselling Help

Post by snuginarug » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:53 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:Well that shows a total lack of understanding of the subject.

Yes the physical needs to evaluated but I highly doubt you can get a depressed and suicidal teen out to go running with you everyday without some kind of intervention, trust me on this, been there, tried that. ( Though she did say later that being forced to run around the block with her old mother huffing in a purple track suit was so humiliating that she worked harder to get her meds and counselling working right)

Also There are many different kinds of therapy practices. It is a lot like masks - it has to fit the person, the problem and the time frame. What works for you will not work for others.
Getting a **chemically** depressed person on meds is the first step, not the last. If you can't get out of bed, you certainly are not going to go work out at the gym. If simply grocery shopping is too much of a drain on your basic energy capabilities, you are not going to come home with bags full of fresh produce and cook it. Working away from three different directions works best for chemically depressed patients... One) get them on meds, which reduces the bone crushing lack of energy. Two) get them to a counselor who can explain why exercise and diet are important, and then explain how to meet those needs, then cheerlead the client through the process of introducing said changes. Thirdly, if necessary, exercise and nutrition services.

As for there being many kinds of therapy, the most cost effective are behavioral/cognitive modification therapies. And if it is cost effective, it means the patient gets better faster, which is REALLY good for the patient. For once cost effective IS better for the patient. Usually behavioral/cognitive therapy groups and classes are combined with individual counseling.

I am ENTIRELY against the blanket rejection of medicine as first course of action. I was under the care of an anti-med counselor for almost ten years before FINALLY being diagnosed as Bipolar 2 and put on drugs that simply ENDED 3/4 of my problems. I was robbed of TEN YEARS of my life because I was busy groveling on the floor with insane depression, every minute of my life a torment.
NightMonkey wrote:Repeating myself, the Freudian bullbleep that many still practice should be avoided entirely.
I agree with this. Talk therapy in isolation does NOT work.

There is a big BUT attached to that... some people have been so incredibly traumatized they really do need to talk out their experiences. Child abuse does exist, and these children grow up to be troubled adults who need certain types of talk therapy... hopefully administered by a trauma specialist.

One-size-fits-all does not work, in treating mental illnesses. Or, really, in anything else either.