OT - For the Paleo / low carbers

[JeffH]

and anyone else interested in a more healthy lifestyle.

http://ancestryfoundation.org/

Click on the Vimeo link to listen to the speakers. More will be added as the days go by. Many of the speakers are scientist and Phd's. Really interesting stuff here.


JeffH

[PST]

Thanks, JeffH. I find it difficult to think of this kind of post as really being off topic -- at least not very far off. I understand that there are plenty of skinny people with OSA, but there is just no denying that obesity is an aggravating factor. The increase in the frequency of the condition as weight goes up (and also age) is clear. I certainly feel like I pushed myself over a line from a propensity to airway obstruction as represented by the occasional snore to full-blown OSA as I gained (mumble mumble mumble) pounds. I'll bet many others here are interested in what fellow members have done to try to lose weight and how well it has worked. I realize that there are diet and nutrition forums, and this shouldn't become one, but when I see a post like this it seems like a contribution to the cause. It isn't like a post on the designated hitter rule or something.

And another thing …

One of the most common types of posts are those from people who took the initiative, figured out what might be wrong, got medical help, got CPAP, and started using it with fair technical success, but still feel awful. They may have low AHI and few leak or fit problems, but they still feel weak and depleted. Often they are newbies and disappear before long, and you have to worry they have given up. It is sad and frustrating.

I'm sure many people have more than one obstacle standing between them and good health. Some people, like me, are lucky and get a good enough boost from CPAP that we know we've stumbled onto the solution to one of our problems. But what if some people are facing the equivalent of an electrical circuit with two open switches?

_______/ ______ \______

They do all the right things to close one of them, but they don't get better, and perhaps the lack of positive physical feedback causes them to drop out of CPAP. Then if they ever find and fix the other problem, they still have an open circuit. Maybe sometime we have to say to people that if they've got good numbers and they've given this some time, but still feel lousy, they'll just have to take CPAP on faith for a while, based on the experience others have had, while they look for the second open switch. Given what we know about burgeoning obesity, the frequency of food allergies, and other nutrition-related issues of our time, diet is a logical starting place. There are no doubt other causes, even sometimes those that are more psychological than physical. So any post like JeffH's that might help point someone in the right direction could be just what we need for the person who seems to have treatable OSA but isn't yet getting practical improvement in his or her overall sense of well being.

[Mike6977]

From the JOURNAL OF NUTRITION & ATHLETIC EXCELLENCE

Two scientists at the top of their respective fields—Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Professor of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, author of The China Study and Dr. Loren Cordain Professor, Department of Health & Exercise Science, Colorado State University, author of The Paleo Diet—make their competing cases for the role of dietary protein in health and disease.

It's a pdf file, an animated back and forth, and very much worth reading.

http://crossfitbirmingham.ning.com/foru ... 58%3A26057

[Slartybartfast]

JeffH, thanks for posting the link. There's plenty of good stuff there over which to ruminate. Wish I had known about it a few weeks ago. I could have gotten there via public transportation in about 5 hours, or driven there in 1 hour. The program is a Who-s Who of the low carb/paleo dietary world. I think I'll be spending some quality surfing time after work for the next week or so.

[LoQ]

It isn't like a post on the designated hitter rule or something.

Is that controversial? There should not be designated hitters. Every player, including the pitcher, should have to bat. How can there be any disagreement on that point?

But what if some people are facing the equivalent of an electrical circuit with two open switches?

_______/ ______ \______

They do all the right things to close one of them, but they don't get better, and perhaps the lack of positive physical feedback causes them to drop out of CPAP. Then if they ever find and fix the other problem, they still have an open circuit. Maybe sometime we have to say to people that if they've got good numbers and they've given this some time, but still feel lousy, they'll just have to take CPAP on faith for a while, based on the experience others have had, while they look for the second open switch.

This is a really important point. I'm one of those who had more than one switch to close. I think this is often behind the frequent question, "How long does it take to feel better on xPAP therapy?" People may have other things wrong. That doesn't mean that xPAP isn't the answer, just that it isn't the whole answer.

I find that we (myself included) often on this forum over-generalize. One of the things I have come to realize in reading so many people's stories is how wide the variation of SDB is. Yes, sleep medicine is big business. It is expensive. If we could just get the industry to quit seeing this as an "above average" profit business and instead do their jobs of custom-fitting each solution, it would be worth it. As it is, people are paying what you would expect to pay for a custom-fit but getting a choice of only "three sizes." If a custom fit were genuinely provided, the cost wouldn't change, but the benefits would be much greater. The only way the fit is "custom" is that each patient gets a titration to produce their personal sleep number, but we know that's not always nearly enough to produce good results.

Patients need to become better educated. When a doctor says, "here, take this CPAP machine home and use it, then come see me in a year," he doesn't really mean that's the end. What he knows, but rarely says, "if this machine doesn't work for you, there are other machines that could be tried, but insurance rules require you to try this one first. Try to make this work. If it won't, then come back and see me."

Patients need to know that another sleep study might be required, and they might have to start asking for it. All of my open switches except for SDB were closed because I asked specific questions about them. Otherwise, they (the open switches) would have been ignored. And even SDB was not totally up to the doctors. I was prescribed CPAP, but I do better on APAP. Obviously, I might have gone back and asked for that, but a little experimenting on my own revealed that APAP is better for me. I wasn't interested in getting the doctor to tweak what I knew how to tweak when I had other open switches that required his attention.

[Vader]

As a Christian, I certainly don't buy into all that " we came from apes" nonsense,
but that in no way has anything to do why low carb eating can really help you maintain a healthy weight.
I can say from first hand experience that since going low carb, two weeks ago, I have lost 10 lbs, without even trying!
I've even cheated,( I like drinking milk) or I would've probably lost even more weight.
It's really not that difficult to maintain a diet of high protein and low carb.
I'm not even overweight much,(6', 175) but I've tried all kind of dieting in recent years, and never lost a pound.

As far as I can see, this way of eating REALLY works!

[RandyJ]

Low carb works! Maintenance is a bitch though!

[So Well]

The before/after diets of low-carbers need to be considered.

Most people that I have observed losing weight on a low-carb diet had a "before" diet that was high in calories. Sure, they had many bouts of low-calorie dieting but were never able to maintain the diets for a long period of time.

Then they go on a low-carb diet which consequently cuts the caloric intake down. So which do you think causes the weight loss?

I have been on the low-carb diet and lost weight but I am sure it was because the total calories was reduced.

I do considerable high-intensity exercise running and weightlifting for strength (low reps). On a low-carb diet my performance of both activities starts dropping off. The day before exercising I need some considerable amount of complex carbs to keep my glycogen reserves from being depleted the next day.

One thing that I do consider deadly is sugar and fat in combination - ice cream for instance. In fact, most desserts.

I can't argue with the dramatic photos jeffh posted in another thread. But I bet, in addition to reducing carbs, he reduced his total caloric intake significantly. I also seem to remember he increased his exercise regimen.

BTW, when I open that link and see glaring at me "Ancestral Health" and "The Woodstock of Evolutionary Medicine", I immediately thing here is a bunch of people who have resorted to a funny religion because science is at best insufficient on what they believe.

Two things to remember, first, I don't worry too much about ancestral health because almost all of my ancestors are now dead!

Second, Woodstock signaled the end of hippiedom and the great music of the sixties!

Examine your diet and eat to suit yourself not me.

[SleepyT]

Now here's what I wonder. Why does it have to be creationism or evolution? Why can't it be both? Why can't we have a God that started the whole thing with the big bang knowing that His ultimate plan was to have mankind evolve down the road? This either or...black or white....right or wrong.....in itself seems narrowminded.

[Vader]

I don't know what happened to your post, JeffH, where you insulted me by saying I was "small minded" for laughing at science, while you say "evolving from apes" is "science", it's certainly NOT fact.
I thought the discussion was about low carb? ...which I agreed with.

It's probably best for civil discussion if we don't start by belittling others if they have different religious beliefs, don't you think, Jeff?

[So Well]

Now here's what I wonder. Why does it have to be creationism or evolution? Why can't it be both? Why can't we have a God that started the whole thing with the big bang knowing that His ultimate plan was to have mankind evolve down the road? This either or...black or white....right or wrong.....in itself seems narrowminded.

The creationism I have been exposed to is nonsense and is not consistent with the Bible. The most avid proponents of creationism are people who do not understand the Bible well.

BTW, mainline evolutionary theory does not state that humans evolved from apes.

[So Well]

while you say "evolving from apes" is "science",

Evolutionary theory does not say humans evolved from apes. Go check it out.

[Vader]

Now here's what I wonder. Why does it have to be creationism or evolution? Why can't it be both? Why can't we have a God that started the whole thing with the big bang knowing that His ultimate plan was to have mankind evolve down the road? This either or...black or white....right or wrong.....in itself seems narrowminded.

Because, if you believe in God, in God's PERFECT plan,
God said THIS :
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

[So Well]

Vader, Who is the "us" in your Bible verse?

[Vader]

The most avid proponents of creationism are people who do not understand the Bible well.

Now that makes no sense at all. Are you sure YOU understand the Bible?

I understand it very well.

Go back and read what I just posted from Genesis. It's a darn good start!