EncorePro 2 giving incorrect leak numbers

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 9:08 am

I am having a problem with Encore Pro2 giving me incorrect leak numbers. Using EncoreViewer 2 it shows a TOTAL leak of around 45 given that my mask has an intentional leak of around 42 at my needed pressure the unintentional leak should be around 3. Encore Pro 2 is showing an unintentional leak of around 20, which is far too high. Using the other free software such as Onkor confirms the result of EncoreViwer. Why is the pro version giving me bad information?

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:01 am

DougVK wrote:I am having a problem with Encore Pro2 giving me incorrect leak numbers. Using EncoreViewer 2 it shows a TOTAL leak of around 45 given that my mask has an intentional leak of around 42 at my needed pressure the unintentional leak should be around 3. Encore Pro 2 is showing an unintentional leak of around 20, which is far too high. Using the other free software such as Onkor confirms the result of EncoreViwer. Why is the pro version giving me bad information?

Let's try to get some info first.
What is the make/model of the "my mask" you refer to?
What exactly is your "needed pressure"?

How do you know which leak number is correct?

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:18 am

What do you get if you change Encore Pro to show Total Leak instead of unintentional leak?

Let me go play with Encore Viewer 2.0 and Encore Pro 2.4 and see what I get.

Edit. Encore Pro (set for total leak) and Encore Viewer give me the exact same figures for Saturday night. 26 L/min
Enocre Pro (set for unintentional leak) gives me 0.1 L/min
Onkor online gives me same as EV and EP set for total leak.

Note that the "base vent rate" that either software wants to use for my mask at my average pressure seems to be around 26 L/min. It is close but not perfect. At my average pressure of 12 my mask's vent rate is around 35.

Could you post a screen shot of the EP 2 report in question?

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:20 am

GumbyCT wrote:
DougVK wrote:I am having a problem with Encore Pro2 giving me incorrect leak numbers. Using EncoreViewer 2 it shows a TOTAL leak of around 45 given that my mask has an intentional leak of around 42 at my needed pressure the unintentional leak should be around 3. Encore Pro 2 is showing an unintentional leak of around 20, which is far too high. Using the other free software such as Onkor confirms the result of EncoreViwer. Why is the pro version giving me bad information?
Let's try to get some info first.
What is the make/model of the "my mask" you refer to?
What exactly is your "needed pressure"?

How do you know which leak number is correct?

I have a Quattro FX at a pressure of 12 on average, which according to the FX manual has a leak of 41 L/min. According to the EncorePro there is a total leak is over 60, while according to EncoreViewer it is around 45. I assume viewer is correct because even when testing I can detect no leek by the pro still shows a leak of over 20. The software is made by the same people, it should produce the same numbers.

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:24 am

Pugsy wrote:What do you get if you change Encore Pro to show Total Leak instead of unintentional leak?

Let me go play with Encore Viewer 2.0 and Encore Pro 2.4 and see what I get.

How do I get Pro to show the total leak?

Ok, I figured out how to show total leek. It shows the same total as the other programs. So what I am seeing is the number it uses for the intentional leak is incorrect. How does it determine the intentional leak?

GumbyCT · Post by **GumbyCT** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:28 am

DougVK wrote:I have a Quattro FX at a pressure of 12 on average, which according to the FX manual has a leak of 41 L/min. According to the EncorePro there is a total leak is over 60, while according to EncoreViewer it is around 45. I assume viewer is correct because even when testing I can detect no leek by the pro still shows a leak of over 20. The software is made by the same people, it should produce the same numbers.

I assume you are comparing the same sleep sessions? Not different sessions, correct?

Pugsy will be back soon

builta · Post by **builta** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:29 am

Hi,

What is your "System1 Resistance" setting? I am using the Resmed Quattro FX and use a setting of "X1" and appear to be getting correct information. The System 1 Resistance" setting will affect the numbers that EncorePro 2 reports.

Cheers
Builta

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:39 am

builta wrote:Hi,

What is your "System1 Resistance" setting? I am using the Resmed Quattro FX and use a setting of "X1" and appear to be getting correct information. The System 1 Resistance" setting will affect the numbers that EncorePro 2 reports.

Cheers
Builta

How do I set the resistance setting?

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:46 am

builta wrote:Hi,

What is your "System1 Resistance" setting? I am using the Resmed Quattro FX and use a setting of "X1" and appear to be getting correct information. The System 1 Resistance" setting will affect the numbers that EncorePro 2 reports.

Cheers
Builta

I figured out how to change it. It was on 0 before.

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:55 am

Resistance setting will not affect the leak numbers like ResMed machines do.

In other words it will not affect the "baseline vent rate". I have experimented with it just to make sure. It is not designed to alter baseline vent rate. Respironics machines don't figure vent rates with the Resistance numbers.
Resistance numbers are explained in the clinician manual. Unsure if it is explained in the user manual since I don't have user manual. Do you have the clinician manual? We do nothing in the software in regards to Resistance settings.

When using APAP mode and if there are a lot of pressure variation the "baseline" number will also vary some. I have checked mine toggling back and forth on the reports from Total Leak to Unintentional Leak and subtracted difference and it seems to vary from 25 L/min to nearly 30 L/min which all are below what the mask literature states at my pressure.
It is simply a less than perfect guideline to use.

Is this a one night fluke or do all your reports show a huge difference in unintentional leak number when compared to Encore Viewer?

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:00 am

Pugsy wrote:Resistance setting will not affect the leak numbers like ResMed machines do.

In other words it will not affect the "baseline vent rate". I have experimented with it just to make sure. It is not designed to alter baseline vent rate. Respironics machines don't figure vent rates with the Resistance numbers.
Resistance numbers are explained in the clinician manual. Unsure if it is explained in the user manual since I don't have user manual. Do you have the clinician manual? We do nothing in the software in regards to Resistance settings.

When using APAP mode and if there are a lot of pressure variation the "baseline" number will also vary some. I have checked mine toggling back and forth on the reports from Total Leak to Unintentional Leak and subtracted difference and it seems to vary from 25 L/min to nearly 30 L/min which all are below what the mask literature states at my pressure.
It is simply a less than perfect guideline to use.

Is this a one night fluke or do all your reports show a huge difference in unintentional leak number when compared to Encore Viewer?

It is every night, the total leak numbers being reported by pro look accurate based on the mask. In Pro every night either the total leak number is wrong or the unintentional leak number is wrong. They both cannot be right based on my mask. It seems to be calculating a venting number that is near half of what is accurate for the mask.

Since every mask has a different vent rate, how does it know what is intentional or not? Am I suppose to select a mask in the software?

builta · Post by **builta** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 am

Hi,

Sorry, was AFK. Glad you found how to change the setting. For others it can be found in the "User's" "Setup Menu". If it doesn't show up in the "User's" "Setup Menu" menu that is because it as been turned off in the "Clinical" "Setup Menu". If you can see the setting but cannot change it is because it has been "Locked" in the "Clinical" "Setup Menu."

Pugsy, Have you "felt" the difference in the provided air pressure when you change the setting for Resistance? You can really feel the difference on a PRS1 BiPAP Auto. The actual pressure curves change in response to the System 1 resistance setting. Also, The reported leak rate will change from "Total" Leak Rate (if resistance is set to "0") to "Un-intended" Leak Rate (if resistance is set to anything else). The unintended leak rate will change based on the Resistance Value.

Cheers,
Builta

DougVK · Post by **DougVK** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:13 am

Well if I cannot get it report a correct unintentional leak rate, then I will just use the total leak rate and subtract off the mask vent number to get the unintentional leak rate.

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:34 am

DougVK wrote:Since every mask has a different vent rate, how does it know what is intentional or not? Am I suppose to select a mask in the software?

No, there is nothing to select. We have no idea how the base vent rate is computed. The machine doesn't know what mask you use. Usually it gets us close though. Even mine shows an obvious total leak which is less than my mask vent rate. So we know that can't be right. It is at best a close estimate.

I don't really look at the leak average myself. I look at the line itself and as long as no large spikes the numbers are irrelevant anyway.

You can use the Total leak reporting feature if this bugs you too much.

builta wrote:Pugsy, Have you "felt" the difference in the provided air pressure when you change the setting for Resistance? You can really feel the difference on a PRS1 BiPAP Auto. The actual pressure curves change in response to the System 1 resistance setting. Also, The reported leak rate will change from "Total" Leak Rate (if resistance is set to "0") to "Un-intended" Leak Rate (if resistance is set to anything else). The unintended leak rate will change based on the Resistance Value.

I felt no change at all but my minimum pressure is only 10 cm. It doesn't ever go higher until I get to REM. I also rarely have much leak and from what I have read the Resistance thing is more for "keeping the leak monster in better control and more comfortable" so maybe that is also why I don't sense any difference. I also had no change in what appeared to be the baseline vent rate. It is kinda hard to judge since using APAP my "average" fluctuates a bit. So I have to take the best case estimate. The leak type reported did not change for me with the Resistance settings change. It stayed with my selection in the software. Maybe it is an APAP vs BiPap thing.

I have been using 0 Resistance control for quite some time now and since OP is using 0 Resistance control I would think that we would be close to apples to apples comparison here. I have no clue as to why such a huge difference. If I could see some reports maybe I could spot something but that is a awful lot of reports to sort through and compare. Lot of time and work and no guarantee of success.

I like looking at the unintentional line myself since it starts at zero and is easy to spot in blips.
Just my preference since I don't really pay much attention to the average leak number itself. It is too easily skewed with a leak spike.

Wulfman... · Post by **Wulfman...** » Mon May 30, 2011 12:41 pm

DougVK wrote:I am having a problem with Encore Pro2 giving me incorrect leak numbers. Using EncoreViewer 2 it shows a TOTAL leak of around 45 given that my mask has an intentional leak of around 42 at my needed pressure the unintentional leak should be around 3. Encore Pro 2 is showing an unintentional leak of around 20, which is far too high. Using the other free software such as Onkor confirms the result of EncoreViwer. Why is the pro version giving me bad information?

DougVK wrote:I have a Quattro FX at a pressure of 12 on average, which according to the FX manual has a leak of 41 L/min. According to the EncorePro there is a total leak is over 60, while according to EncoreViewer it is around 45. I assume viewer is correct because even when testing I can detect no leek by the pro still shows a leak of over 20. The software is made by the same people, it should produce the same numbers.

DougVK wrote:How do I get Pro to show the total leak?

Ok, I figured out how to show total leek. It shows the same total as the other programs. So what I am seeing is the number it uses for the intentional leak is incorrect. How does it determine the intentional leak?

Trying to follow the discussion in this thread is frustrating.

It seems to me like you're confusing the Respironics machines/software with the ResMed machines/software.

There is no "intentional" or "unintentional" leakage reported in the Encore programs.
The Encore programs report TOTAL leak........Average and Large.
The "Viewer" program tends to report a slightly higher (rounded up) number than the "Pro" version.

Are you comparing the very same night between the two programs (Pro and Viewer)? Or, are they different nights?

Are you using a range of pressures or fixed pressure?
If you're using a range of pressures and looking at different nights, that's like comparing apples to oranges.
If you're using a range of pressures and looking at different nights AND using different software programs (Pro, Viewer and Onker), that's like comparing apples, oranges and bananas.

The masks have a stated "Vent Flow Rate" (exhaust rate to clear CO2) at certain specific pressures (usually represented in a graph that comes with the mask user manual). Anything above those numbers is considered "Leak". However, many machines have variations in their reporting characteristics and a number of five LPM higher (or lower) is still considered to be within tolerances.

With regard to the "Resistance Setting", it's been my understanding that if you don't use a Respironics mask, you should leave the setting at "0".

Den

EncorePro 2 giving incorrect leak numbers

EncorePro 2 giving incorrect leak numbers

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