AHI VS Symptoms

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Mikesus
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AHI VS Symptoms

Post by Mikesus » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:01 am

I keep seeing folks make comments that they have to get their AHI "as low as possible" to get the "best" treatment. If you are under 5, you are treated. If you are having problems with symptoms, then you and your doc need to look at other reasons for it. There was a study regarding neck circumference and its relationship to AHI and the Epworth Sleepiness Scale. Guess what? AHI is NOT correlated to symptoms!! In fact in that study, neck size related more so to sleepiness than AHI!
We conclude that patients with higher neck circumferences are more likely to be symptomatic than patients with lower neck circumferences regardless of the level of AHI. The size of the neck appears to predict the severity of sleepiness symptoms that these patients display as indicated by the Epworth sleepiness scale. Further studies are needed with larger numbers of patients to evaluate the usefulness of this observation.


Link to Study

This goes along with anecdotal evidence that Dr. David Rappoport presented in his lecture at the ASAA Lecture in March.

A relative of his was tested originally to be used as a "normal" subject. His AHI tested in the severe range, but was completely without symptoms. Ten years later, he was symptomatic. If there was a direct relationship to AHI, one would think that his AHI would be higher. IN FACT, it was the same as ten years earlier!

So, the thought of having an AHI of 2.3 vs 1.3 is worse and will make you feel worse is more than likely without merit. I have no doubt that some people when seeing that their AHI was 2.3 will then be symptomatic, but it is more than likely not a function of AHI as much as a function of their concern that they aren't being treated.

Here is another bit of anectdotal evidence
Small study of 18 children:
Failed to demonstrate more behaviour problems with
increased severity of symptoms, and suggested
relationship in opposite direction – children with mild
SA reported more problems than those with severe
OSA.


Link to PDF


chrisp
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Post by chrisp » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:21 pm

.
I think he's lost his way. Could someone show him the way to the ASAA site.



:twis ted:

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wading thru the muck!
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Re: AHI VS Symptoms

Post by wading thru the muck! » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:49 pm

Mikesus wrote:I keep seeing folks make comments that they have to get their AHI "as low as possible" to get the "best" treatment. If you are under 5, you are treated.

And if your untreated AHI is less than 15 your condition doesn't merit treatment... or so I was told by the sleep lab that did my study. Luckily for me my GP thought otherwise and fought on my behalf to get me therapy... even though the conventional wisdom said that reducing my AHI from 12 to 1 or 2 would not provide me any benefit... this could not be further from the truth.

The "conventional wisdom" on the medical community is not always wiser than the "collective wisdom" of the actual users on this forum.

Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:54 pm

Nothing beats a study like a good opinion.

Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:16 pm

Wow, who said 15? I said 2.3 Conventional medical wisdom states over 5 is not considered normal. Its sounds like your doc needed to learn conventional wisdom.
OSA is classified as mild when an AHI of 5-15 is found, moderate when the AHI is 15-30, and severe when the AHI is >30


Link

Hopefully you found a better doctor! But that still doesn't get at the point of this post, which was and still is that the relationship between AHI and symptoms is weak at best.

Last edited by Mikesus on Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:18 pm

even though the conventional wisdom said that reducing my AHI from 12 to 1 or 2 would not provide me any benefit...
Sounds more like a not-so-smart lab in the first place -- I think you and your doctor were wise to get you onto cpap, Wader. Surely most labs and most sleep doctors would recommend cpap treatment for someone who has an AHI of 15, wouldn't they? I'd hate to think that not treating an AHI of 15 or 12 was really the "conventional wisdom" out there in the sleep field.

At any rate, an AHI of 15 or 12 is considerably more than the AHI's of 2.3 vs 1.3 in the point Mikesus was making. I took his post to be about not worrying about trying to get an very low AHI that's already under 5 down even lower. I agree with that. If it's 2.1 or 4.2 or 0.8, those are all good and are all under "5".

CollegeGirl
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Post by CollegeGirl » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:23 pm

Interesting stuff. I have a low neck circumference - the sleep tech even commented that it "barely qualified." But qualify it did, I guess, since I'm here. I really wish there was a sleep apnea fairy that could come down and grant me money for the sleep tests and blood tests mike thinks I need - I'd do it in a heartbeat. I have a friend who has amazing insurance that covers EVERYTHING (through her parents), and not a health problem in the world. She and I often joke about how helpful it would be if we could just trade policies for a while.

Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:34 pm

CollegeGirl wrote:Interesting stuff. I have a low neck circumference - the sleep tech even commented that it "barely qualified." But qualify it did, I guess, since I'm here. I really wish there was a sleep apnea fairy that could come down and grant me money for the sleep tests and blood tests mike thinks I need - I'd do it in a heartbeat. I have a friend who has amazing insurance that covers EVERYTHING (through her parents), and not a health problem in the world. She and I often joke about how helpful it would be if we could just trade policies for a while.


CG - It would be easy to just have a doc prescribe something like Provigil, but that only masks a symptom. Getting to the bottom of the problem is what will solve it. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and we use bandaides to fix lots of things...

The neck size is only one of the predictors of OSA. There are folks with "skinny necks" that have it too. The point in that study that I was trying to point out was they "noticed" that neck size related to symptoms regardless of AHI.


CollegeGirl
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Post by CollegeGirl » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:09 am

Yes, I know. Very interesting. I would definitely be a case where AHI doesn't correlate to sleepiness. But neck size doesn't, either, for me. Maybe I'm just a direct descendent of Rip Van Winkle.


Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:16 am

[quote="CollegeGirl"]Yes, I know. Very interesting. I would definitely be a case where AHI doesn't correlate to sleepiness. But neck size doesn't, either, for me. Maybe I'm just a direct descendent of Rip Van Winkle.


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WAFlowers
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Post by WAFlowers » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:20 am

Anonymous wrote:Nothing beats a study like a good opinion.
But there are a few people performing sleep studies who should get a good beating!
The CPAPer formerly known as WAFlowers

Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:25 am

Bill,

The problem is that those folks would *like* it. Wouldn't that be uncomfortable...

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wading thru the muck!
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Post by wading thru the muck! » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:57 am

According to my sleep lab (a VERY large one in my area) and my insurance company (a VERY large one in the midwest), patients with an AHI of 15 or less do not warrant cpap therapy. In fact, the lab did not even hook me up during my first supposed split night study. My insurance company was not thrilled to pay for a second $2000+ study, but my GP insisted.
rested gal wrote:Wader. Surely most labs and most sleep doctors would recommend cpap treatment for someone who has an AHI of 15, wouldn't they? I'd hate to think that not treating an AHI of 15 or 12 was really the "conventional wisdom" out there in the sleep field.

As you can see, at least in my area, this IS the conventional wisdom.

To clarify my point in commenting on this thread, I DO see a big difference in how I feel when my AHI is 1+/- as compared to 5 or 12 for that matter. IMO, personal experience is much more accurate than what some consider the definitive answer of the medical community.
Sincerely,
wading thru the muck of the sleep study/DME/Insurance money pit!

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christinequilts
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Post by christinequilts » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:17 am

Wader- even Medicare goes with AHI ≥ 15 events per hour, or AHI between 5-15 with documented EDS, impaired cognition, high blood pressure, heart disease or stroke. My mom fell into that category with an overall AHI of 9, but she also has EDS, HBP and atrial fibulation. In her case, it was also an issue of when the events were happening- she had very few apneas in NREM, but in REM she had the equivalent of 50 per hour- all with arousals- and O2 desats to 59%- plus she never slept on her back at all during the studies. The issue with treating low AHI is that xPAP can end up disrupting your sleep as much as a few apneas. In my case, they didn't think BiPAP ST would be worth it since it only stopped half my central apneas, leaving me with 30+ per hour- thankfully it did.


I think what Mikesus was refereing too is when we see people who are basing how they are doing more on what the machine reports as their AHI then anything else. Some people become obsessive about getting the lowest possible AHI and for some, it is if they don't think will feel better until they reach 0 apneas per hour. Are those same people measuring their neck circumference every time they check their xPAP results? Do they say they are doing better because their neck circumference is lower or because, according to their machine, their AHI is lower? It reminds me of when someone takes about how their life will be perfect if they had X-amount of money. If that person wins the lottery, do all their problems magically disappear?- no health problems, no relationship problems...and live happily every after? No- its unreasonable to expect that, just like its unreasonable to expect having an AHI of 1 versus 6 is going to make you 1/6 as tired during the day. I still have 30+ apneas per hour on BiPAP ST- does that make me 25 times more tired then someone with an AHI of 5? Maybe if apneas were the only reason for daytime sleepiness, but they are not. Just because we are on xPAP, doesn't mean other things can't cause us to be sleepy during the day....there are a lot of people with no apneas at all who have problems with being sleepy during the day...ask the spouse of anyone who snores loudly.

We've seen some people who fiddle with their xPAP settings who are still having problems even though they get down to a ridiculously low AHI. Some of them find they actually do better running their machine in straight CPAP mode instead of autoCPAP, even though their AHI may be a little higher. Its pretty apparent that the changing pressure from autoCPAP is more disruptive to their sleep then the apneas it prevents. For some people, having the ability to review their results from time to time is a very good tool; others take it too far. Just like the bathroom scale can be a dieters best friend, it is a tormenter for someone with anorexia.


Mikesus
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Post by Mikesus » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:28 am

You could very well be the exception but some of the better minds in Sleep Apnea Research seem to disagree.


Dr. Sullivan and Dr. Rappoport are both well renown in the field of Sleep Apnea. If it were not for Dr. Sullivan, we wouldn't even HAVE CPAP.
THE APNEA-HYPOPNEA INDEX: USEFUL OR USELESS?
ATLANTA—The apnea-hypopnea index (AHI) is useless for measuring the severity of sleep-disordered breathing (SDB), says Colin E. Sullivan, MD, PhD. He presented arguments in support of that statement in a pro/con debate at the recent annual meeting of the American Thoracic Society in Atlanta.[1] Offering the opposing view was David M. Rapoport, MD, who maintained that the AHI does have its place in clinical practice.

“There is not much association between the AHI and anything else—sleepiness, muscle dysfunction,” or other markers for SDB, claimed Dr. Sullivan
, who heads the Sleep Disorders Unit at the University of Sydney in Australia. The management of SDB should hinge on the history, physical examination, and clinical judgment, he asserted.

LIMITATIONS OF THE AHI

The lack of a standard definition for hypopnea is another limitation of the AHI, he said. Furthermore, measuring hypopnea is difficult because of the inaccuracy of the devices currently available to monitor patients’ airflow during sleep.

For example, thermistors do not actually detect airflow but the passage of hot air, Dr. Sullivan explained. Even pressure transducers, which do measure airflow, have only limited ability to detect changes in breathing, he noted.

The AHI can mislead physicians about the severity of SDB, Dr. Sullivan added. At certain points in the menstrual cycle, for example, women with SDB may respond to apnea with a large rise in blood pressure (BP) rather than in the AHI. Catastrophic BP elevations with no change in the AHI were even observed during sleep apnea in a woman with preeclampsia.

In infants and children, apnea usually manifests as partial upper airway obstruction; breathing is loaded even though the AHI is very low. In these groups, the AHI is “unequivocally the wrong metric” of SDB, Dr. Sullivan stated.

What alternatives are there to the AHI? “Hypertension is a good start,” said Dr. Sullivan. It has long been known that BP rises in obstructive sleep apnea, he related.

Researchers are also evaluating the usefulness of measuring fibrinogen concentrations, which are often elevated in the morning in patients with SDB. Others are looking at sleep apnea–induced changes in the levels of circulating and cellular mediators and in cellular adhesion molecules.

Probably the best indicator of SDB, however, is simply the response to continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) treatment. “It really is a no-brainer,” Dr. Sullivan remarked, pointing out that CPAP administration is especially easy with the newer devices that automatically set the appropriate amount of positive pressure.

IMPERFECT BUT USEFUL

The AHI may not be perfect, but it is useful, argued Dr. Rapoport. No one has devised anything better for distinguishing people with and without obstructive sleep apnea, pointed out Dr. Rapoport, Medical Director of the Sleep Disorders Center at New York University School of Medicine in New York City.

Furthermore, efforts have been made to improve the AHI. The American Academy of Sleep Medicine has recently attempted to standardize the index, for example, and work has begun to define its normal range.

Also, AHI values correlate with symptoms of SDB. “[The correlation] is mediocre perhaps, but it is not absent,” stated Dr. Rapoport, countering Dr. Sullivan’s earlier assertion.

Because the AHI is imperfect, Dr. Rapoport views it as a marker for the apnea-hypopnea syndrome and not as a definitive metric. He has found the AHI most useful for detecting severe apnea-hypopnea syndrome.

He defines severe cases as those with an AHI of 30 to 50 events per hour or greater. “This is definitely bad … and I want to treat it,” he stressed. Obstructive sleep apnea symptoms are also likely to be severe enough to warrant treatment in patients with an AHI of about 20 per hour; SDB can probably be ruled out at an AHI of about 10 per hour.

Dr. Rapoport cautioned against over-interpreting the “gray zone” between AHIs of 10 and 20 per hour. “I do not quite know what that means,” he acknowledged.

—Timothy Begany

Reference
1. Sullivan CE, Rapoport DM. The apnea-hypopnea index is a useless metric of sleep disordered breathing: pro-con. Presented at: Annual Meeting of the American Thoracic Society; May 21, 2002; Atlanta, Ga