Dreaming: Sign of Effective Treatment?

[newhosehead]

Hi All, I just read Jersey Girl's post about dreaming and I didn't want to hijack her post so decided to start a new one. I congratulate her as the rest of the responders did!
Here is my question: Is dreaming (or should I say remembering your dreams?) really an indicator that your treatment is going well? I have been on the hose for three months now and I do feel some improvement most days. Some days I don't feel any at all. This past weekend was pure Hell, but my numbers were good so I suppose I have to realize CPAP doesn't make every day great. I am also not as young as I used to be (darn it).
But, back to dreaming. Before treatment, I never remembered dreams and I do mean NEVER. It had been years. In the last week or so of treatment, I did have one string of three nights when I remembered dreams, all of them bad, all of them easily interpreted by a current and very disturbing worry about a member of my immediate family. Other than that, I don't think I have had a dream that I recall since beginning treatment.
Does this mean my therapy is ineffective or am I only going to remember my dreams when they are disturbing? I suppose this is a silly question, and probably one that can't be answered. Doesnt look like that is going to stop me from posting it, though.

Jeanette

[jnk]

Some interesting and educational comments were made by -SWS and Rested Gal in this thread (Ignore my posts there--I was just posting stuff to try to get more information out of -SWS. It's a little trick I play. Don't tell him. ):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47642#p431438

[newhosehead]

jnk, Thanks for the link! Interesting reading, which I might have found by searching
By the way, I love the quote from O'Connor that you use. She is one of my all-time faves.

Jeanette

[jnk]

jnk, Thanks for the link! Interesting reading, which I might have found by searching
By the way, I love the quote from O'Connor that you use. She is one of my all-time faves.

Jeanette

I remembered the thread, so I knew what to search for.

One trick I use is to go to "Members" and to enter "rested gal" in the member search and then search on her posts as a quick way to get to good info. (But don't tell HER that trick, OK? )

jeff

[newhosehead]

Jeff, Excellent advice. That lady is a goldmine of information and don't worry, I won't say a word.

[Nord]

Some interesting and educational comments were made by -SWS and Rested Gal in this thread (Ignore my posts there--I was just posting stuff to try to get more information out of -SWS. It's a little trick I play. Don't tell him. ):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47642#p431438

Great Link Jeff...

Although I read some of the link, I'm going to spend some time reading over the positions in detail. I find it interesting... to wonder why we dream

I'm not sure its' science so much as near science, but after reading the "talking points"... maybe I'll understand better.

BTW: I don't think I've remembered a dream in a while (according to my 2 sleep studies - I get between none and very little REM time) but I think my PAP therapy is working... I also think that some (just some) of these threads contain valuable info for readers that they find difficult to find (or don't look for) and should really have a separate posting as an important "category". Not everyone has Rested Gal's filing system... just a thought

Nord

[jnk]

Some interesting and educational comments were made by -SWS and Rested Gal in this thread (Ignore my posts there--I was just posting stuff to try to get more information out of -SWS. It's a little trick I play. Don't tell him. ):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47642#p431438

Great Link Jeff...

Although I read some of the link, I'm going to spend some time reading over the positions in detail. I find it interesting... to wonder why we dream

I'm not sure its' science so much as near science, but after reading the "talking points"... maybe I'll understand better.

BTW: I don't think I've remembered a dream in a while (according to my 2 sleep studies - I get between none and very little REM time) but I think my PAP therapy is working... I also think that some (just some) of these threads contain valuable info for readers that they find difficult to find (or don't look for) and should really have a separate posting as an important "category". Not everyone has Rested Gal's filing system... just a thought

Nord

I believe it is common not to get much REM in sleep studies. In a diagnostic, you aren't on a machine. In a titration, you may be wearing a mask for the first time, in a strange room, with strange noises, and pressures jumping around. Some of us dream a lot and get REM rebound the night of the titration, but some of us don't. For some of us, it may not be until we are back in our own beds for a while and used to PAP therapy that we start having good REM. But it still may be that we still don't remember any dreams, even if we get plenty of REM now, since there is a big difference between having dreams and remembering dreams. At least, that's how I understand it all.

I am glad people keep asking the same questions over and over as they come here because it shows what people think about and because the answers change according to the latest machines, the latest science, and the latest experiences gained by some of the longtime posters. The post I linked to, for example, contained a discussion between two people who have I'm sure been posting for many years on that very subject, but still a very valuable exchange of information took place that threw light on the latest experiences and research read by those posters. That would not have happened had not the original poster brought up the question of dreams again. Rested Gal constantly updates her lists of links, and that is because new points continue to be made and clarified.

I love this place.

jeff

[Ruffinit]

I would think (without reading the links) that the more time you spend in REM, the more you will dream. The more time in REM would normally equate to the quality of sleep you are getting.
That being said; before I began the "treatment" I dreamt all the time, sometimes 2 to 3 dreams a night. Since beginning this hell-on-earth treatment I NEVER dream.. I miss that. Occasionally when I wake about an hour before the alarm, I'll pull the mask off and get some good sleep (very deep). I then dream.

[Nord]

...

I believe it is common not to get much REM in sleep studies. In a diagnostic, you aren't on a machine. In a titration, you may be wearing a mask for the first time, in a strange room, with strange noises, and pressures jumping around. Some of us dream a lot and get REM rebound the night of the titration, but some of us don't. For some of us, it may not be until we are back in our own beds for a while and used to PAP therapy that we start having good REM. But it still may be that we still don't remember any dreams, even if we get plenty of REM now, since there is a big difference between having dreams and remembering dreams. At least, that's how I understand it all.... (shortened by Nord)

jeff

Actually 1 night was with mostly with CPAP... for titration. My next Study will be 100% CPAP and I will be looking for both SWS and REM percentages. As of now I spend 90 - 95% of my sleep time in N1 or N2 sleep. I'm not sure how bad that is... but I'm sure it makes me tired PLUS... very few remembered dreams. I sleep very lightly and most noises wake me up.

Nord

[jnk]

I would think (without reading the links) that the more time you spend in REM, the more you will dream.

In my opinion, yes and no. It is now thought, I believe, that we "dream" in other sleep stages too, not just REM. But REM is when we tend to have the vivid, emotionally-charged dreams.

. . . before I began the "treatment" I dreamt all the time, sometimes 2 to 3 dreams a night. Since beginning this hell-on-earth treatment I NEVER dream.. I miss that. Occasionally when I wake about an hour before the alarm, I'll pull the mask off and get some good sleep (very deep). I then dream.

I won't argue with your self-assessment on that. But I would propose another conclusion. I would propose that you have no idea how often you dreamed. You only know how many times you remembered dreaming. And that's a totally different thing.

I would also propose that that you have no idea how much you dream now during treatment. You only know that you don't remember dreaming, which, again, to stress the point, is a VERY different thing.

Having arousals, or sleep-stage shifts, during a dream, or soon after, appears to make it more likely you will remember that dream. So one theory is that not remembering dreaming COULD be a sign of better sleep, at least for some of us.

I would not recommend taking the mask off to sleep. Although that might make you REMEMBER dreaming, it could actually be DECREASING the amount of REM you get. Not to mention the danger of sleeping without the mask if your apneas are severe. REM is when many of us have our most frequent and worst negative events. Supine REM is notorious for airway collapse. Please think about whether it is worth it to you to destroy your sleep just for the seeming benefit of remembering dreams.

I am not an expert, though. Just a guy who worries about other people taking their mask off at the very time they may need it the most.

jeff

[jnk]

. . . My next Study will be 100% CPAP and I will be looking for both SWS and REM percentages. . . . Nord

Man, I would LOVE to get a sleep study like that!

But, it would mostly just be to put my mind at ease, and not clinically significant in determining treatment, since I would not be willing to take a drug to affect my sleep-stage percentages, myself.

[Nord]

I would think (without reading the links) that the more time you spend in REM, the more you will dream. The more time in REM would normally equate to the quality of sleep you are getting.
That being said; before I began the "treatment" I dreamt all the time, sometimes 2 to 3 dreams a night. Since beginning this hell-on-earth treatment I NEVER dream.. I miss that. Occasionally when I wake about an hour before the alarm, I'll pull the mask off and get some good sleep (very deep). I then dream.

I'm guessing that since your "treatment" is hell on earth... you cannot get very much REM or N3 sleep during treatment. On the other hand most people have most of their Apnea events during REM stage. Dreaming also occurs during REM. Seems like a mixed bag for most of us.

I guess "treatment" is half mental/ half physical and before you can get completely rested - you have to conquer the mental aspect of treatment and get to the restful part... REM and N3. Right now, I would guess that your Apneas are under better control but w/o enough REM or N3 sleep... you're not getting enough restful sleep. Sounds simple and maybe it is... just that we can't control it simply.

While my treatment in not "hell" and I have controlled my Apneas to a great degree... I have not achieved Rest... yet. I am focussing my reading right now on N3 and REM time.

Just a thought...
Nord

[Ruffinit]

jnk - I appreciate your empathy. I do know that I get deep and restful sleep and alway have without the machine. I have never tossed and turned, awakened or felt like a truck ran over me, have never felt the urge to sleep in the evenings while watching a movie until the treatments. Though all my numbers look good (that's the detailed reports also) and according to the docs it's "textbook perfect"; my CSAs are down to less than 8 per night from 32/hr. I feel worn out. Out of energy, and willing (wanting) to pick a fight with anyone who doesn't walk away. I spent 20 years in the service sleeping directly underneath the arresting wires on a Carrier, 5 years in the Special Ops and I still am having the worst sleep of my life. It's like a living nightmare. The only thing that keeps me on this is my family. I now toss and turn all night, I wake up numerous times and because of the aerophagia most mornings are painful or at least uncomfortable. So, there you go. I find that those 30- 60 minutes in the mornings make the days bearable (if I get them). They've given me drugs that are supposed to help me sleep, but it makes the following day FAR worse than without them.

[rested gal]

Some interesting and educational comments were made by -SWS and Rested Gal in this thread (Ignore my posts there--I was just posting stuff to try to get more information out of -SWS. It's a little trick I play. Don't tell him. ):

viewtopic.php?p=431438#p431438

LOL!!

may be that we still don't remember any dreams, even if we get plenty of REM now, since there is a big difference between having dreams and remembering dreams.

That BIG DIFFERENCE is well worth repeating over and over and over again. You're absolutely right, Jeff.

To put it another way, there is a big difference between HAVING dreams (but not remembering, when we wake up, that we DID dream during the night) and truly NOT DREAMING AT ALL, or not having any REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. We can dream up a storm and not remember it at all.

We can wake up in the morning after a night of great CPAP treatment and think, "Hmmm.. I didn't have any dreams!" But what we really should be saying is, "Hmmm.. I probably dreamed, but I don't remember it. It's as if I didn't have any dreams at all, but I'll bet I did dream and just am not aware of it."

It's probably not unusual for people with severe OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) and who are not yet on CPAP to not be able to even get into REM where most dreaming is said to occur. Dreaming can also happen in other sleep stages, but I believe it's thought that the most vivid dreams happen during REM.

When the person is finally getting CPAP treatment, he/she probably is able to settle into REM. That doesn't mean you'll be AWARE of dreaming, though. You can be getting perfectly effective CPAP treatment and be getting plenty of REM each night, and wake up during the night or in the morning without ever being aware of having dreamed at all. You slept peacefully right through the REM cycles. Or, if you woke during the dream, the "arousal" may have been so brief you don't remember either the wakening or the dream.

So if you're on CPAP, I'd say this... don't think that because you CAN'T REMEMBER any dreams in the morning it means you didn't dream or didn't have REM sleep or that your treatment is not going well. You may have been (and probably were) having plenty of good REM (and dreams) without having awakened long enough to commit the fact to memory. Your good CPAP treatment allowed you to have REM and dreams, but perhaps you slept through them and just don't remember them.

(But don't tell HER that trick, OK? )

I never noticed.

In all seriousness... Ruffinit, I hope you are able to get better sleep soon. That has to be awful for you.

[TerryB]

Just to throw in my two cents worth.
Remembering a dream my not be an achievement (taking into account the theory that we must have been disturbed to notice it happening), but it's better to have dreamed and remembered it than never to have dreamed at all.

Good dreams to all (recalled or not)

TerryB