Is sleep debt real?

[fidelfs]

Hi guys,

I have read several postings were the term sleep debt has been mentioned. I want to know if this a real thing or something kind of urban myth.

Just watching TV this morning Thursday 1/14/10 on ABC there is a study about people being sleep deprived and trying to compensate during the weekend with 9 10 hours of sleep. They said it is not like a bank where the balance is what matters. You won't get those hours back even if you sleep all weekend.

I want to hear what member of this forum have to say. My question is because I am a newbie (4 weeks) and the first 2 weeks were great, but then I became more letargic, not sleepy like before, but I cannot wake up early. I keep hitting the snooze button. I have some other conditions that have similar symptoms such as Hypothyroid, hypogonadism and sleep apnea.

I am fully compliant with cpap, 0.5-1.2 AHI, no leaks, etc. so I wonder if this sleep debt is real or my other illnesses are acting up?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[BlackSpinner]

The people in the show were just sleep deprived, OSA patients are both sleep deprived and oxygen deprived for sometimes years.

and the first 2 weeks were great, but then I became more letargic, not sleepy like before, but I cannot wake up early.

The first few weeks on cpap I slept without moving for 8-9 hours each night. I think that this time is being used by our bodies to do repair work caused by the lack of O2 for a long time.

I also feel that because I no longer wake in the morning with the apnea adrenaline pouring through my body I am waking up much more slowly. Like I used when I was much younger. I am back to being the morning bear.

[Wulfman]

Hi guys,

I have read several postings were the term sleep debt has been mentioned. I want to know if this a real thing or something kind of urban myth.

Just watching TV this morning Thursday 1/14/10 on ABC there is a study about people being sleep deprived and trying to compensate during the weekend with 9 10 hours of sleep. They said it is not like a bank where the balance is what matters. You won't get those hours back even if you sleep all weekend.

I want to hear what member of this forum have to say. My question is because I am a newbie (4 weeks) and the first 2 weeks were great, but then I became more letargic, not sleepy like before, but I cannot wake up early. I keep hitting the snooze button. I have some other conditions that have similar symptoms such as Hypothyroid, hypogonadism and sleep apnea.

I am fully compliant with cpap, 0.5-1.2 AHI, no leaks, etc. so I wonder if this sleep debt is real or my other illnesses are acting up?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Don't just take OUR word for it.......use Google, too.

Here are just a few links that came up when I Googled "sleep debt".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_debt

http://www.sleepdex.org/deficit.htm

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... p-on-sleep

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/sleepless.html

It's "REAL".


Den

[roster]

Sleep debt is real. Please mail me your principal and interest payment for the last six months.

[JohnBFisher]

... there is a study about people being sleep deprived and trying to compensate during the weekend with 9 10 hours of sleep. They said it is not like a bank where the balance is what matters. You won't get those hours back even if you sleep all weekend. ... I keep hitting the snooze button. I have some other conditions that have similar symptoms such as Hypothyroid, hypogonadism and sleep apnea. ... so I wonder if this sleep debt is real or my other illnesses are acting up?

It exists, but is not as big an issue as some people seem to think. For example, if I get 2 hours of sleep per night (instead of during the week, then try to "catch up", I do "catch up" some, but I do not need to try to get all the sleep time back.

Why is not as big a deal as some people think? Well, I will feel better after a few extra hours of sleep. But during the week, when my brain should be doing things (dreaming) to incorporate memory and work through problems - I won't ever recover that. During the week, when my body (during deep sleep) should be doing the repair and recover - I won't ever recover that. During the week, when my heart should be resting (beating slower during deep sleep), I won't ever recover that.

Severe sleep deprivation can seriously undermine your health. As you've read here, some of the consequences can be permanent: diabetes, hypertension, and heart problems can become permanent problems. So, you might need some help to improve those conditions to feel better.

Some problems are not as permanent such as obesity. But they require quite a bit of effort to regain normal health. So, you might not feel significantly better until you do more to regain better health - such as reduce weight. That's just an example, but shows why it might take time to get completely back up to normal speed.

But a few extra hours - if I am reasonably healthy - will allow my body to bounce back as well as possible.

No, it's not like a bank. But if I am reasonably healthy and I get adequate sleep for me, then when I have a bad spell a couple nights of extra sleep helps. But it does not replace the lost sleep. It just tends to make me feel better. (By the way, sleep studies show that sleep deprivation does impact how you sleep - how quickly you start to dream - how quickly you reach deep sleep - all of these things show sleep debt is real).

Now, why do you have problems waking? Did you wake quickly before your sleep problems arise? In my case, I know why that can be the case. I'm not a morning person. I naver was a "morning person". So, for me, the underlying condition is just that it's morning! Ugh! Mornings come too early!!

But nothing is wrong with me. Just normal. Oh, I'm not saying you might not have something else going on. Just don't dismiss the obvious - that it's normal for you. It could be once you got back to normal sleep, your body's response to the morning went back to normal.

It also could be it will take a while for your health to go back to normal. So, extra sleep might be needed for a while.

If it's a serious problem for you, you might want to try to go to sleep earlier and see if that helps, try to allow more time to wake up. For example, my wife takes just a few minutes in the morning. I need at least an hour to get going. I've always been that way. Or you might even discuss it with your doctor if you remain sleepy throughout the day.

[fidelfs]

I think I should have used a different title such as "Could I repay the sleep debt?" , "Is is possible to repay sleep debt?" or something like this.

I know you can be sleep deprived, but Does the body know this and make you sleep more? of is another issue causing this more hour sleep?

I found one of the articles explaining (thanks Wulfman) but the comments about the article are contradictory to the article.

[roster]

On another subject, since I was diagnosed and began CPAP, I have a habit of observing other people's habits. You surely know people who like to "sleep-in" on weekend mornings. Sometimes until noon.

I have become convinced that 99% of these people have undiagnosed SDB. Even with the extra hours, their sleep debt is not getting paid off because they aren't sleeping well.

[Julie]

There is another factor which very often occurs. Once you begin having air pumped into your nose, it quite often tends to start wanting to come out of your mouth when you're sleeping, and very many of us have had to go from a nasal mask to a full face one (just a nasal that extends to cover your mouth) to allow us to 'mouth breathe' when sleeping and not lose all the Cpap air. It's important to check into it because it certainly can manifest as you're feeling like therapy stopped working. You can test it out by using tape for a couple of nights (do a forum search on Taping for details) and if you sleep better that way, then should start looking at full face masks like the UltraMirage, Quattro, Liberty, etc. (there are different types).

[fidelfs]

Yeah, I know about the mouth breathing. it was detected during my second sleep study, I am actually taping my mouth.

[tillymarigold]

Sleep debt takes about 3-6 months to pay off, you can't do it in a weekend. It's more like, your body gets used to functioning in a certain way and it becomes normal, and it takes that long for your body to accept that normal is the new normal.

I literally woke up 4 months into my treatment and felt different, looked different, moved differently, sounded different (my singing voice came back). I have better and worse days, but it is absolutely better than how I felt before.

[TWW]

My impression (I am a newbie/skeptic) is that "sleep debt" is a notational convenience for discussing long-term organ / brain damage from night-time oxygen deprivation, followed by a period of healing once one is compliant with CPAP and getting enough O2. The healing takes time.

[kteague]

I say it's real, but not so literally as being like a time bank. I think of it as having accumulated health deficits that require an investment of rest and sleep for recovery. In just about every other area of our health, if we have suffered a trauma or illness, we accept that we need extra rest and sleep so our body can conserve its energies for the recovery process. Why should we expect any less after years of being assaulted by OSA just because there isn't an incapacitating pain that forces us to bed? Maybe sleep debt is not the best term for this. But it makes sense in that adequate restful sleep is what's been missing, and only adequate restful sleep can fix that.

A friend from long ago got lots of teasing from the rest of us because she protected her sleep at all costs. There was no event or date she valued over her sleep. The rest of us ran ourselves into the ground, sacrificing sleep on the altar of our busy lifestyles. She took care of herself in other ways too. Without exception, she has been healthier, looks younger, and is brighter and more energetic than any of our old crowd. Luck of the genes? Maybe a bit. But I think some of the rest of us sadly miscalculated the cost of a lifetime of shortchanging our sleep by choice. Add OSA to lifestyle sleep deprivation - it's a miracle I didn't "break" sooner.

Keep in mind that the articles out there on sleep deprivation may be talking about short sleep only. Recovering from sleep that is of good quality but a little short would look very different from sleep that is of long term poor quality with the stresses of OSA.

[tomjax2]

I could be wrong, but I am skeptical of the term sleep debt.
It may just be a very subjective term used to describe the general effects of sleep deprivatino over a period of time.
If this satisfies many people, then so be it.
I just have a problem with it being used as a clinical entity that is objectively quantified.
There is no doubt that we will feel better if our sleep is improved.
This may take varying periods of time and is probably linked to other factors such as depression and general mental outlook
If it helps to use this term, then do so, but I do not think it is an established clinical entity.

Just my opinion.

[fidelfs]

Just an update about my sleep debt being real or not. I think in this case is my other illnesses acting up. My doctor assistant call me yesterday that my blood test is back. I have a severe vitamin D deficiency, as you know vitamin D is not really a vitamin, it works together with hormones and what not.

I have hypothyroid and hypogonadism and vitamin D has a big roll in how you feel. He recommend 50,000 IU twice a week for 4 months. I hope this will make me feel better, and in the mean time I tried to catch up with any sunshine I can get.

[deadhead77]

I think a significant factor which should be looked for is the gradual adjustment to being sharper and clearer in mind and spirit. Struggling through a life of osa symptoms has to distort our personalities in a lot of different ways. As we feel better physically, I think the various strains on our mental stae improve as well and we become more our natural self. This will obviously take time and sleep debt is as good a name for it as anything else.
I am 58 in a few weeks, I have almost certainly had osa since I was a kid and I am prepared for all sorts of mental/personality benefits over the coming years.

I think for someone like me, the benefits of cpap can just keep coming gradually for years...

Bliss